Intro 0:00
Are you worried about over vaccination with your dog or cat? Are you concerned about the side effects? What might happen if you have to give vaccines often for going to boarding, grooming, daycare? How can you solve these issues? How can you detox your pet to help keep them as safe as possible? If you have to give vaccines, my guest today is going to give you all that information and more.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Hello, and welcome to the Naturally Healthy Pets Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Judy Morgan. My guest today, Dr. Barb Fox, is a holistic veterinarian from Northeast Iowa. So, glad that we have holistic veterinarians in Iowa, because it's out in the middle of nowhere,
Dr. Barbara Fox 0:42
exactly.
Dr. Judy Morgan 0:43
But I mean, we are hiding in different pockets all around the country, sometimes we're just a little hard to find.
So, do you have a practice right now?
Dr. Barbara Fox 0:51
I do telemedicine consulting, and so I just stopped. I was filling in for a conventional practice where I was allowed to do some holistic treatments, however, I just had it, and I'm done. right. So, I do consulting with people all over the country.
Dr. Judy Morgan 1:10
That's amazing, and something that's hard to find. And you know, I did, like, I used to do a lot more consults, and I just.. I'm so overwhelmed with everything that's going on that I refer out almost all of them now, but it's.. I feel like it's a critical piece for our pet parents. Because a lot of them don't have, you know, we have people who live in food deserts. We also have people who live in veterinary deserts, where, you know, there's one practice within 50 miles, so there's your choice, and if that happens to be a very conventional practice, and you have an animal that's not having some conventional problems, can be really tricky.
Dr. Barbara Fox 1:51
It really can.
Dr. Judy Morgan 1:52
You know, and unfortunately, we have a lot of constraints that are placed upon telemedicine in veterinary medicine, and I wish a lot of that would just go away,
Dr. Barbara Fox 2:02
You and both. It can't be soon enough.
Dr. Judy Morgan 2:06
Yeah, you know, the human medicine, I mean, for p6 I keep getting messages from Amazon saying we have telemedicine available through Amazon, and I'm like that's exactly where I want to shop for my medical care, but you know, if you're someone who's housebound and you can't get out, and for a lot of these people with large dogs or dogs who have a lot of anxiety, and getting them into an office, telemedicine can be huge for them.
Dr. Barbara Fox 2:31
Absolutely,
Dr. Judy Morgan 2:33
you know, we are constrained by no, we really can't make a diagnosis, and no, we cannot prescribe medication, but we can talk about nutrition, essential oils, supplements, I mean, so many things that we can help people with.
Dr. Barbara Fox 2:48
Absolutely, and I really like working with those pet parents that are kind of new to it, because I like to take them on a journey from start to finish, and it's, it's really fun, Dr. Judy, when you can see the eyes open, and it's kind of like, oh, wow, really,
Dr. Judy Morgan 3:03
yeah. Oh, I don't have to get all those vaccines, I don't have to give those chemicals,
Dr. Barbara Fox 3:08
right.
Dr. Judy Morgan 3:09
It's, you know, unfortunately, being older, grew up in a generation where the person in the white coat tells you what you need to do, and you're supposed to respect and follow everything the person in the white coat says.
Dr. Barbara Fox 3:27
Yep, I was in that same era.
Dr. Judy Morgan 3:29
and unfortunately, what we have found is that sometimes that advice might go against what is in the best interest of us and our pets
Dr. Barbara Fox
Yeah, I totally agree.
Dr. Judy Morgan 3:42
Yeah, I mean, we have such a huge influence with big pharma, big pet food, that I feel like it's especially with big pet food now owning so many veterinary clinics.
Dr. Barbara Fox
Oh, it's insane.
Dr. Judy Morgan 3:55
It is really insane. And I feel like it's a conflict of interest.
Dr. Barbara Fox 3:58
It is absolutely,
Dr. Judy Morgan 3:59
it's a total conflict of interest, so what we really want to focus on today is the truth about vaccines and what your veterinarian won't tell you about vaccines. So I'm sure you see what I see when I read records, which is, you know, you get the records, they got a new puppy, maybe that puppy came from a pet store or from a very traditional breeder, and so by the time it's eight to 10 weeks old, and it has now made its way to its new family, it's already had multi series of vaccines.
Dr. Barbara Fox 4:35
Yeah, and a lot of people, and breeders especially, do not know that there's protective immunity from the mom's colostrum for those first several weeks, and if they vaccinate too soon, they choose to vaccinate, I should say. Then that's interfering with the maternal antibodies, and the puppy can't develop its own immune system. and so it's not only a waste of time, it's a huge stressor on the on the puppy too,
Dr. Judy Morgan 5:01
absolutely, and what really makes me crazy is the one size fits all medicine that we get, particularly in a lot of corporate practices. And sorry, I'm just not a fan of corporate medicine, because it tends to be this fit them in the box, one size fits all, and so you walk in with your 10 week old puppy that may have already had a series of three sets of vaccinations, and we're talking about a set of vaccines. It's not like they're just getting a distemper vaccine or a parvo, they're getting these what we call the wombo jumbo shots, where it's like, oh, it just got a DHL PP coronavirus all in one, and a Bordetella, and you know, maybe a Lyme vaccine, like all these things thrown in at once, and then you walk into the clinic, and they say, "Oh, we give all puppies a series of three, so he may have already had three, those don't count, we start over,
Dr. Barbara Fox 5:54
right, and they never give conformed consent, or I'm sorry, informed consent, which happens in the human realm, but it does not happen in the pet realm, and that basically, for your viewers who don't know what that means, it means that you sit down with your pet parent and you talk about what's Fifi going to be exposed to, and then going over some of the risks, and then telling them that you know you should customize that vaccine protocol,
Dr. Judy Morgan 6:21
exactly. I can't stand the one size fits all, and unfortunately, I feel like that is what is being taught to the students,
Dr. Barbara Fox 6:31
right? Yes,
Dr. Judy Morgan 6:32
it's like they come in, don't trust, you know, maybe, maybe the vaccine, they bought it at a big box store and gave it themselves, maybe it wasn't refrigerated correctly, maybe it, you know, wasn't it? Didn't give a protective antibody because, you know, the vaccine wasn't handled correctly. Well, there is no way to know that
Dr. Barbara Fox 6:52
exactly,
Dr. Judy Morgan 6:53
but it doesn't mean you have to start over,
Dr. Barbara Fox 6:54
right? Yep, I totally 100% agree.
Dr. Judy Morgan 6:58
Yeah, so let's talk about how a vaccine works. It's not like you walk in and they get jabbed and they're instantly protected. Okay, good. Let's go play with all of our friends with Parvo, because now we're good to go. So, let's have a quick explanation of how vaccines work and why we even do them.
Dr. Barbara Fox 7:17
Okay, so a vaccine was intended to prevent disease, but it also can create disease. I'll get into that a little bit, but how a vaccine works is you take the antigen, which would be a killed or modified live disease particle, and then you add saline, that would be the perfect vaccine for me, but they put different things in there, like thimerosal, which is a mercury derivative. Sometimes there's traces of formaldehyde in there. There are other preservatives. Aluminum is a big one that they call an adjuvant, which basically is added so that the puppy or the kitty, whichever species you're injecting, is supposed to mount a stronger immune response, but it's
Dr. Judy Morgan 8:03
because their immune system says fire an invader, mercury, aluminum. Oh my gosh
Dr. Barbara Fox 8:08
Yeah, and then antifungals and other antimicrobials and dyes and stabilizers, emulsifiers - those all go in that shot, or that vaccine vial, I should say. And then when the pet gets injected with this, the body goes, "What the heck is this stuff?" Doesn't know what to do with it, and then you know disease creates a lot of problems, but the vaccine is supposed to make that puppy mount its own response to a disease, and like you said, it doesn't happen just all at once, so for the few weeks after a vaccine, the body kind of goes into hyper mode, and then it kind of crashes, and that's where we start to see autoimmune diseases begin, and so you know people think that they have to have a shot or they have to have a vaccine, not really aware of all the effects that can happen, and some of these, you know, I'm, and I'm a vaccine reactor myself, so I'm very in, in vet school. I was a senior, we had to get,
Dr. Judy Morgan 9:14
we had the experimental Reese's monkey rabies vaccine. What'd you get?
Dr. Barbara Fox 9:18
I have no idea, too long ago to remember, but I remember I should have never had it in the first place, because I had just got done with allergy desensitization shots, and I got kicked out of the office because I reacted to, I reacted to those shots. So they make you wait in the waiting room like a half an hour after shot, make sure you're not going to go into anaphylaxis. Well, I went into anaphylaxis, and yeah, so end up in the emergency room, and I didn't think about, oh, that's different from the rabies vaccine, right? So we were scheduled to go over to the student health center and get our rabies, our first one, our initial shot, and I. Recognized immediately after I got the injection, I felt like I was going over the top of a roller coaster, and I thought, "Oh, I'm gonna pass out, so I just slumped against the wall and let myself sit down, and they rushed me into the emergency room, got me on an IV, gave me an epinephrine injection, and I was sick for three days, you know, I couldn't go to school or anything, we were supposed to get a booster in two weeks.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Yeah, how'd that go?
Dr. Barbara Fox 10:25
Well, I didn't do it
Dr. Barbara Fox 10:26
I was seeing an allergist at the time. This is way before I was into holistic medicine, and my allergist said, 'If you decide to get that second shot, I want you in the emergency room on an IV drip. And he said, 'I would not suggest it, and I can write you a medical exemption letter. I'm like, I'm in, write me the letter. I was too scared.
Dr. Judy Morgan 10:47
So, interestingly, I only was bitten by a rabid animal once in my career, which is pretty good. So I was working emergency medicine. It's like 2o'clock in the morning, and these people that lived in an apartment complex brought in a little kitten that was hanging out around the apartment complex, and, and this was a pretty suburban area, and so the little kitten's just sitting on the table. I completed my physical exam, and it, you know, didn't find a whole lot. It was just kind of dull, and my technician is in the room with me, and all of a sudden that kitten flew off that table, was literally bouncing off the ceiling, bouncing off the walls, and just attacked my technician.
Dr. Judy Morgan 11:32
bit her like seven times, bit me, and you know we finally corralled the kitten, and she goes, I think we should test it for rabies now. Thank God for my technician, because I'm not sure that I ever would have said that. I'm just thinking, okay, this is a kitten who just lost his loving mind, and I was like, oh crap, you're right, you know, this is a kitten that we don't know anything about, you know. So, luckily, the people didn't own the cat, so they were fine with it. We tested him, it was rabies positive.
Dr. Barbara Fox 12:01
Oh my goodness,
Dr. Judy Morgan 12:02
So we both go off to the hospital to get our rabies vaccines. She had the anaphylactic reaction, oh my to the rabies vaccine. I did not, so I guess my Rhesus monkey vaccine worked, but she had an anaphylactic reaction. Well, she had to get seven injections because this was a positive animal. so with every single treatment she had to be admitted to the hospital on the IV fluids with epinephrine, and at the end of all of that, when they did her titer, it was zero. She was non, she was not able to make an immunity, which, and luckily she didn't get rabies, but she quit the profession. She said, "I cannot take that risk. I said, "No, you cannot. So, so we can have animals, so that'll bring us around to titers, and we'll talk about what those are. But we can have animals who are non responders to vaccines, so we can poke them 100 times, and, like my technician, their body is not going to mount that immune response.
Dr. judy Morgan 13:00
So give us an explanation of titers and why, when, and why you recommend doing them
Dr. Barbara Fox 13:05
so for your listeners, I'm going to make it super, super, super simple, because I get this question a lot. A titer is a blood draw, so we take a blood sample and send this blood sample into a laboratory. I think Kansas State University is the only one in the United States that does those, is that right?
Dr. Judy Morgan 13:22
No, actually, Hemo Pet Dr. Dodds' lab will do them. I mean, and there are well, for rabies, talking about for rabies, yeah, Kansas, for sure,
Dr. Barbara Fox 13:32
yeah. And so, when they get this sample, they set it up, and they get a number, like, so they're testing the antibodies, the antibodies are the cells that are kind of the first responders, and they will make more antibodies in response to that disease. So, just like when you have a cold, you make antibodies against that cold virus. So, if the titer comes back with what they consider a quantitative number, and it's usually a number of point five or greater, that means that the animal is well, we could go into a lot more detail on that, but this is just a simplified version, they say, right, say that the animal is protected and doesn't need to be revaccinated, so it's a different way of assessing whether an animal has responded to a vaccine or not, and I love titers, I think they're great, but the thing is that even if there's one antibody circulating, there are memory cells in the body that will respond and tell the body to make more antibodies, so it's
Dr. Judy Morgan 14:40
when they get an exposure, so let's say we have an animal that's been vaccinated for parvo, or an animal who survived parvo. We do a titer on that animal. We should have a high number, so the numbers are different for parvo and distemper than they are for rabies. So we'll get this number back. This is, yeah, look, they're protected. That's great. But we could have animals who were non responders, right. We've given them the vaccine and it comes back as zero. They did nothing with that, so we don't really know. But let's say the titer comes back low, that number comes back low. Well, the next time they get exposed, those memory cells kick in.
Dr. Judy Morgan 15:19
And unfortunately, we don't have a way to measure that, so that's where our animals a lot of times end up getting revaccinated because the number came back low, so on paper we don't have proof, correct, and why we need the paper to prove it, but it becomes a big problem for people who want to take their animals to daycare, boarding, grooming, training. You know, and I, me personally, I feel like I would say veterinarians in general, but there's so many veterinarians who don't even like titers or don't believe in titers or won't run titers, who, or who charge $600 to run a titer, so it scares off the client, right? Yeah, it's insane. We need to do a better job educating boarding, grooming, daycare, dog parks to accept titers,
Dr. Barbara Fox 16:06
exactly.
Dr. Judy Morgan 16:07
But I mean, we haven't even convinced all the veterinarians, so it's a big nut to crack.
Dr. Barbara Fox 16:12
Yeah, a lot of.. and this happened in the conventional practice. I just left the practice owner didn't like titers because it took too long. Yeah, we have to ship it out and wait for the results to come back, and he didn't want to mess with that. Just easier to give the shot, but you have to remember every time you give the.. this is for your listeners, because I know we were on the same page, but these puppies that just, or I shouldn't say puppies, animals that just get revaccinated without any thought of what goes into their body that's injected from that vaccine vial, and then they develop chronic disease, which we call vaccinosis. A lot of conventional practice practitioners don't even recognize vaccinosis or vaccine reactions as a real possibility.
Dr. Judy Morgan 16:58
Well, you know, we say that with so many things, like I'm just huge fighting against the neurotoxins that we're using for parasite prevention. I think they're, oh my gosh, yeah, you know. And we'll have animals that are, they're given a dose of that, and within three hours they have bloody vomiting and diarrhea. They're back in the office and saying, "Hey, my animal had a reaction to this, and they get no, no, it's just coincidental, it's just stress, it has nothing to do with it. I'm like, are you kidding me? I mean, and that's part of the problem. And when we come back, we're about to take a break, but when we come back, we're going to talk about vaccinosis more in depth, because it really is not recognized if they don't have an anaphylactic reaction within 30 seconds of being given the injection. Usually, the answer is not related, right? Has nothing to do with it. Couldn't possibly be. We did that vaccine three weeks ago. This has nothing to do with that exactly. And that is a huge problem. So, everybody, stay tuned. We're going to take a break to hear from our sponsors. When we come back, we're going to dive a little more into vaccinosis, what it is, how to recognize it. It's, it's a, it's a big, big issue. I'm not sure if we can cover that in 20 minutes, but we're gonna try. So, stay tuned.
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Dr. Judy Morgan
Welcome back to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. My guest today, Dr. Barb Fox, is really helpful to pet parents around the country, probably around the world, with veterinary telemedicine, which is something that we're just starting to break into. There's a lot of rules and regulations that are pretty archaic, that yeah, we're working on that, but today we're talking about vaccines and their importance and their downside can be really a problem. So, at the end of the first section, we were talking about vaccinosis. We just kind of touched on it. So, first of all, let's kind of give vaccinosis, vaccinosis a definition of what it is, and then how we recognize it, because veterinarians don't recognize it right a lot of times.
Dr. Barbara Fox 19:45
Yeah, well, I think it's important for people to know there are three types of reactions. One would be your acute reaction, which happens within minutes to maybe a couple hours after that vaccine, which can include collapse, respiratory distress, swelling Of the face can have vomiting and diarrhea screaming at the top of their lungs, especially the little dogs that have that, and that is a real serious situation that needs to be addressed immediately. And then the second type of reaction is more what we call the medium type of reaction, where a couple days after the shot, so maybe be a little sore on their back or their shoulders, wherever they are, their butt wherever they got the shot, and they're just maybe not quite as energetic, they're just kind of mopey,
Dr. Judy Morgan 20:28
kind of tender, not wanting to move, you touch them and they screech,
Dr. Barbara Fox 20:32
right?
Dr. Judy Morgan 20:33
Yeah, those poor kids, you know, that's that's sort of like we accept that in our children as a normal vaccine reaction. Oh, he's got a temperature of 102 yeah, vaccines yesterday, like really, ah, makes me nuts,
Dr. Barbara Fox 20:45
yeah, and then that third one is a chronic condition called vaccinosis, and what that can include is just basically any organ system failure or issue or condition, autoimmune diseases, allergies, you know, the with the rabies the way they are right now, the rabies shots. Judy, Dr. Judy, what I'm seeing is these allergy flare-ups and skin rashes, and just that aren't responsive to a lot of the medications, and then we can have GI upsets, so a lot of what we consider inflammatory bowel disease, or irritable bowel syndrome, chronic gastritis, and
Dr Judy Morgan 21:26
kaleidosticatory myositis. The head muscles disappear, they literally have lockjaw, they can't open their mouth, and they're so painful.
Dr. Barbara Fox 21:34
Yeah, so we can see just about any presentation, but the problem is it's really hard to prove it scientifically that it's connected with the vaccine, but I always say an animal doesn't get a disease or a symptom for no reason. There has to be a reason, and so what I do is I try to get to the root cause of that to try to figure out why do we need to detox, do we need to do this kind of supplement or homeopathic remedy. Do we need some other acupuncture chiropractic services, or whatnot? Because every animal is an individual, but I have seen so many vaccine-damaged animals in the last couple years that I'm saying it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when they will show symptoms of vaccine damage, and so I, there's my definition of vaccinosis, is a chronic health condition that results from a vaccine that's, you know, been administered.
Dr. Judy Morgan 22:30
So, in your cohort of patients that you deal with, do you find correlation between the number of vaccines they've had, because we do have, you know, the mainstream medicine likes to call it vax vaccine hesitancy, I call it questioning the status quo, and saying maybe we were wrong, maybe we don't need to get that shot reminder in the mail every single year, and maybe we don't need to be poking, particularly our small patients, with seven things at one time, but do you find a correlation between having more vaccines giving more vaccinosis, or is that not really a correlation? It's like they could have a reaction after one.
Dr. Barbara Fox 23:23
Most of the time it is correlated to the number of vaccines they get, because the cumulative effects of those excipients, those toxins that are in the vaccine, build up over time. However, I've had many animals that I'm still helping them detox from puppyhood vaccines, and that's the only vaccines they've ever gotten, but they like you said, the little guys, this, and most of your listeners are going to know this, but I'll go ahead in any way and say that one mill of rabies vaccine gets injected, whether your dog is five pounds or 150 pounds,
Dr. Barbara Fox 23:57
and that's, and that's a crime to me, because there's one prominent veterinarian that got, he lost his practice and lost his veterinary license because he was doing the right thing and injecting just the right amount of rabies, depending on the on the weight of the dog.
Dr. Judy Morgan 24:13
Yeah, decreasing the dose based on the weight of the animal and the powers that be really don't like those things.
Dr. Barbara Fox 24:19
They sure don't
Dr. Judy Morgan 24:21
yeah, which is, is a sin, you know, and it's, it's funny, I actually have a blog, and it's, it's titled something like, did your veterinarian forget immunology class? you know, it's like we all took immunology, we know how it works, like we, we know that that little modified viral particle that we inject into the body is going to hopefully cause an immune response, and the body says, 'All right, good, I recognize that it's a foreign invader. Next time it comes in, I'll make it go away, and that's the way it's the body is supposed to. Work, but when we throw 30 things at it at once, or we keep throwing those things repeatedly, the immune system's like, what the heck do you want from me?
Dr. Judy Morgan 25:15
I think I have a little immune confusion, and I think I'll just attack everything,
Dr. Judy Morgan 25:22
And that's where a lot of our allergies come from. That's where a lot of our autoimmune disease comes from. And I mean, I'm just gonna say this: if you have an animal who's had an autoimmune problem, don't ever vaccinate them again, right? Which is so difficult if you're in a traditional practice
Dr. Barbara Fox 25:41
And you know what they do. I'm sorry, didn't mean to interrupt. What did conventional practitioners do? Now I'm getting all ramped up. I'm sorry. They will administer diphenhydramine shot, which is Benadryl, and or a steroid at the same time, thinking that that's going to be safe. Well, your animal may not show a reaction, because it's already been medicated with these other things, but if you think about it, a steroid suppresses the immune system. A vaccine's supposed to enhance the immune system to make it produce antibodies, so you're just negating everything,
Dr. Judy Morgan 26:15
right? So the steroid basically tells the body, oh, don't worry about what else you just got injected with, you know, we're just going to cancel it out, make it go away. To me, the antihistamine is crazy. I mean, neither way makes sense. But what I used to say to clients is that injection is the only thing between your animal and death, because they had a mild reaction last time, or maybe they had a severe reaction like yours, and you think this little bit of divanhydramine or Bendril is going to prevent that from happening. It may or may not prevent it from happening, and, like, for me, that's the only thing standing between my animal and possible death. I'm pretty good with not going that route, right. Yeah, interesting. I had a client who came in one day, and it was really.. it was how the scenario worked out was just perfect. We had a client who had an animal who was a vaccine reactor, small terrier breed, and so.. and she was fairly new to us, but it had in the records that the dog was a vaccine reactor, and she was in for boosters, and I said we should really do a titer on your dog, the dog's had a reaction in the past, and she's like, no, no, you just need to give him that other shot to go with it, meaning the antihistamine, and I said I'm really not comfortable with that, your dog is a reactor, we really, I think we should do a titer instead, so we gave her the prices, and our titer prices were cheap at the time, it was like 75 bucks for a titer and 30 bucks for the vaccine. She didn't want to spend the money. Now that particular day we also had a pharmaceutical representative from a compounding pharmacy in our practice, because we used them a lot. They wanted to see what we were doing, and you know, they were using us as a case study, so I was like, that's great. And so what they said is any client who will allow us to watch the interactions between the doctor and their pet and see what you're talking about, we will give them a $50 gift card. Okay, so this happened to be one of those clients. So this guy's standing there with a $50 gift card in his hand, and the difference between the titer and the vaccine is $45 and I'm like, look, we're even paying for it for you, this is a no-brainer. Yeah, and she's like, no, no, I just want the vaccine.
Dr. Judy Morgan 28:30
could not talk her out of it and so we gave the vaccine and the Benadryl, and I'm just shaking my head, going, oh man, I hope this works out. By the time she had checked out at the front desk and hit the front door, the animal collapsed. And I said, well, so that Benadryl didn't work so well, did it? So then we had to rush the animal to the back, put it on IV fluids, give it epinephrine, do all this stuff, and the bill for all of that was hundreds of dollars. She handed over the gift card to the front desk, and I said, and she goes, well, there goes my lunch, and I'm like, you could have solved all that, yeah, like you know, so for those who are listening, if you're having this conversation in your head, go for the titer, like spend the extra money, especially if your animal has been a reactor in the past, or just say, no, I cannot vaccinate this animal, it's just, it's not a possibility,
Dr. Barbara Fox 29:24
you know. And you, the veterinarians are supposed to read the insert that comes with the vaccine vial or the vaccine tray, and I just happened to be curious one day, I'm like, what are they writing in there? So I pulled out, it was rabies, like 50/50 dose tray, pulled out the insert, and I looked at it, and it says specifically exactly these words. It said this vaccine is intended for immunization of healthy animals only. And then it went into if your animal's debilitated, if it's too young, too old. It is concurrently sick with something else should not be vaccinated. So, if you think about it, and you know this, but your diabetic animals, your autoimmune cases, your cardiovascular cases, your renal cases, basically anything that you're being treated, you're treating your pet for, that means your pet's not healthy, and it shouldn't be vaccinated.
Dr. Judy Morgan 30:22
Yeah, so I've got two stories on that one. So, I, I get a lot of records, because you know, having done consultations over the years, and people coming in the clinic, and I just love it when I see the animal is in the records, they're on IV fluids in the hospital, they're giving antiemetics, they're giving anti diarrhea meds. It's like, okay, clearly this animal is in the hospital for vomiting and diarrhea. The animal is sick, it's on IV fluids, and while they're there, they got their vaccines. What happened to the to be given to healthy animals? So, Myra, one of my little sweethearts, a Cava Sean Cavalier/Bischon developed cancer, intestinal lymphosarcoma. So we went to an integrative oncologist, and so while we were there, I thought, well, I'm just going to pick her brain and see, you know, what integrative oncology gets you, and I said, so if you are treating a cancer patient with chemotherapy, would you recommend that they be given flea and tick chemicals? And she said, "Oh, yeah, absolutely, that's no problem at all. And I kind of went, really. So we're going to give them neurotoxins while they're on chemotherapy, that's perfect. And I said, "Okay, well, what if, if my animal is due for a rabies vaccine, or you know, distemper or Parvo vaccine, based on willy nilly nothing at all, because you know if you do a titer, you know whether they're protected, otherwise it's anybody's guess. And she said, "Oh, absolutely, if they're due for their vaccines, we give them, and I'm like, "Huh, pretty sure it says to be given to a healthy animal. I've got an animal with intestinal lymphosarcoma. I wouldn't call this healthy, and the animal's on chemotherapy. I would not call this healthy. So that's sort of the mindset that we're up against,
Dr. Barbara Fox 32:13
right? And it seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me, in the last couple years, these vet clinics have turned away treating sick animals because they're not current on their rabies shot. and they say, well, we can't see it without that. I'm like, hello,
Dr. Judy Morgan 32:27
if they're sick, you can't give it to them. Yeah, talk about an oxymoron,
Dr. Judy Morgan 32:33
The best one I had on that. Oh man, you want to get my blood pressure up. So a client had an animal that they wanted to take in for euthanasia, old animal, multicoma.
Dr. Barbara Fox 32:46
I know where you're going with this, but go ahead.
Dr. Judy Morgan 32:48
And they said to her, "Your animal is not up to date on the rabies vaccine, therefore we cannot see it for euthanasia. And they said, "Well, what would we have to do to get our animal in to be euthanized in your clinic? Well, you have to bring the animal in for a rabies vaccine. After we give the rabies vaccine, then we can see your animal for euthanasia. They literally made this person come in on a Friday and get a rabies vaccine for their sick and dying animal, so that they could see them on Monday to euthanize it.
Dr. Barbara Fox 33:19
You talk about your blood pressure, that gets up big time. Oh my gosh,
Dr. Judy Morgan 33:23
you know, so it's, it's so hard for the pet owner with these arbitrary rules. Yes, I agree, because I mean we gave that rabies vaccine on Friday, or they did give the rabies vaccine on Friday. There's no way the pet has mounted an immune response by Monday,
Dr. Judy Morgan 33:42
oh, we have to protect our staff. We get the same thing, the animals going in for a dental procedure. I just got this phone call with one of mine this year. The technician calls me, they already have the dog under anesthesia and says, "Oh, I see he's due for his rabies vaccine, we're gonna give that while he's here. Now, thank God they called instead of just doing it, gosh, and I said, absolutely, you will not. We never give a vaccine at the time an animal is under an anesthetic procedure, they're stressed in the hospital or ill. I said, no, you know, we'll talk about this in a couple of weeks. Of course, we never have. We'll talk about this later, but no, you absolutely do not have my permission to give that injection while my animal is there for a procedure, so you know that's just one more time that you, you know, if your animal is sick, if your animal is undergoing an anesthetic procedure, if they're in the hospital, you know, for testing some sort of very stressful procedure. that is not the time to give a vaccine,
Dr. Barbara Fox 34:42
yeah, because you're only going to do more damage than good.
Dr. Judy Morgan 34:45
Absolutely, so really vaccinosis can show up almost as anything. sadly,
Dr. Barbara Fox 34:51
and it can happen weeks, months, sometimes even a year or two after a vaccination.
Dr. Judy Morgan 34:58
Yeah, like the Masticatory muscle myositis, which is the paralysis of the head muscles, it's nerve damage, basically. The nerves are so inflamed, and then they just give up. That's usually three to six months after the rabies vaccine. And if you think about rabies, it's a disease that affects nerves and the brain, and so maybe we give that injection in the hind leg, it takes three to six months for it to work its way up through the nervous system and affect the head, but I saw a lot of it, and so those were animals, once they have that's an autoimmune condition, and once they have that, I say, okay, you're no more vaccine, just can't do it,
Dr. Judy Morgan 35:38
so there's so many conditions that we can see in the problem is getting the veterinarian to, to be convinced, it can be very, very, very tricky. So, we're about to take a break, but we come back, we're going to talk about detoxing after vaccination, if you have to get them, and you're, you know, all these different reasons why you have to get them, unfortunately, and you know, I get it. Rabies is zoonotic. If you get rabies, you kind of die every once in a while. They save somebody, but it's rare. And it is in third world countries, it's a huge problem. Yeah, 1000s of people do die from rabies. We're lucky in this country, and it is because of vaccination, but it doesn't mean we have to over vaccinate, and we have to be judicious about it, but we'll talk about detoxing, and we'll talk about what Dr. Fox uses as her protocol, and I'm sure there's not a one size fits all, but there are things that we can do in addition to doing titers and really putting thought process into what is my animal exposed to, what do I need for that specific animal? There are diseases that I would never vaccinate my animals for, because they have zero exposure to those, because it's not a one size fits all, right? And we cannot look at it that way. So, stay tuned. When we come back, we're going to talk about detoxing things you can do for your own pets.
PRODUCT SPOTLIGHT #2
Don't you agree that our dogs should be living longer? I share the top six ways to help your dog live longer in my informative mini course, Dog Longevity Made Easy. This one and a half hour course covers nutrition, vaccinations, veterinary exams, internal parasites, external parasites, and exercise. Podcast listeners can get 15% off using the code PODCAST83 when ordering on DrJUDYU.com This easy to understand education can translate into years of vibrant living for your dog.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Welcome back to the Naturally Healthy Pets Podcast. My guest, Dr. Barb Fox, and I are talking about vaccines, all things good and bad, and there are good things about vaccines. I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I am just.. I mean, we've just gotten to the point where people, kids, animals were just so overwhelmed with vaccines. There's.. there's kind of like a new one every six months. It seems like it seems like it, like since I graduated to now, like it used to be, oh, we gave them distemper, hepatitis, parvo, rabies,
Dr. Judy Morgan 38:04
And now there's like this whole boatload.
Dr. Barbara Fox 38:06
Oh, I know it.
Dr. Judy Morgan 38:07
Actually, parvo vaccine didn't even exist until about 1984
Dr. Barbara Fox 38:11
Yeah, I read that,
Dr. Judy Morgan 38:13
and I graduated in 1984 So, in 1983 our ICU ward was filled with parvo dogs and parvo puppies at the university, and originally they started using a cat parvo virus vaccine on the dogs to try to nip it in the bud, and then develop the dog parvo vaccine, so you know I'm not saying that we should never vaccinate our animals, because that vaccine did over time save a ton of dogs,
Dr Judy Morgan 38:40
interesting. When we opened, when I opened my first clinic, we moved to an area that was really underserved, very rural, low-income area, and we saw so many parvo cases, because there were a ton of Rottweilers, a ton of Dobermans, you know, dogs tied out on chains, very unhealthy, loaded with worms, heartworms, everything you can imagine. So we saw a lot of parvo because these were not healthy dogs who could fight off anything. And so once we got into the community and really started doing education, getting better nutrition, you know, better overall health, it made a huge difference. But it did make a difference bringing that into the community. So I'm not saying we should never vaccinate. I'm just saying we just need to be a lot more responsible. so for those, let's say you're going to boarding, grooming, daycare, training, dog shows, cat shows, whatever, and you're told, like, you know, I used to do a lot of.. I spoke at a lot of expos, those expos where they have 20,000 people come in to entertain their kids all weekend, and there's a million animals, and it's crazy, and they have these requirements now. The good news is they never asked you to actually prove the requirements, but instead, if you were bringing your dog with you, which I took two of mine all the time, you. If you're bringing your dog with you, they have to be up to date, and they listed this whole dang list of vaccines. Luckily, they never asked for the proof, good or bad. For me, it was good for my animals, because I knew they were fine. So, let's say somebody has to prove they have all that stuff. What do they do for detox? What do you recommend?
Dr. Barbara Fox 40:20
Well, first of all, detox is kind of a loose term, so it's a lot of people think it's a one and done thing, and I'm going, no, it is an ongoing process, because not only with the vaccines, we get hit and our pets get hit with industrial waste pollutants, environmental sprays, I live in Iowa, so we have a lot of agricultural sprays around us all the time, you know, the water, the food, everything has toxins in it. So, but specifically for vaccines, I like to use products that help move the heavy metals, like the aluminum and other constituents, out of the body. So, fulvic and humic acids, there are companies that produce, you know, a lot of good quality detoxification. I call them binders, so they bind the metals and the other toxins, and then we have the drainage products that help move those products to the lymph channels to get out of the body. And I'm not going to mention any specific brands here, but unless
Dr Judy Morgan 41:20
there's a whole bunch of them on our website. I will say that, and there's, you know, a lot of companies that, that we do recommend, so you know, you can go to the website and kind of put in your little search, but, but I love fulvic and humic acid products, and I mean, there's quite a few of those available that are really, really good, and definitely we want to look at the reputation of the companies when we're looking for products,
Dr. Barbara Fox 41:42
exactly. I always stress quality.
Dr. Judy Morgan 41:44
Yeah, or you can do a telemedicine consult and find out, you know, the brands that she recommends. So that's one thing that we.. it's one thing.
Dr. Barbara Fox 41:51
And then there are homeopathic remedies. The common ones that people are associated with, or are familiar with, would be Listen for Rabies, and it's a homeopathic pellet, or you can buy it sometimes in a.. I think it just comes in the pellets,
Dr. Judy Morgan 42:04
I think that one does.
Dr. Barbara Fox 42:05
Yeah, and then there's Thuja in different strengths, like 30 C is the most common one, and that helps detoxify the liver. There are other homeopathic remedy companies that I personally use, and one's called the product is called Vaccord, and then another one called drainage tone. You use those two together.
Dr. Judy Morgan 42:23
What company makes those
Dr. Barbara Fox 42:24
Energetics. It's a human line. Okay, but I extrapolate those to the animals, and a lot of times they can be given topically, even, and they'll still work. Then there are the your milk thistle, your Sam-E, your everything that can support the liver is a good detoxification product.
Dr. Barbara Fox 42:43
but, like you mentioned earlier, and I'm just going to reiterate this for your listeners, that each case that I work with is individual, and I use a method called quantum nutrition testing, which is basically muscle testing to figure out which product is compatible for the animal, so I can customize the protocol a little bit more.
Dr. Judy Morgan 43:03
Yeah, yeah, because your animal, you know, one animal may have a myositis, another animal might have an allergic reaction, you know, an allergy issue that's going on, another might have a leaky gut issue, you may have a lump or a bump where the vaccine was given, you may just have muscles that are not working well in that area, and one thing I would like to put out there, and this is very difficult, because so often now your animal is taken away from you when the vaccines or injections or treatments are done, it's not done in the exam room, and I, the practice that I take my animals to, they take them in the back all the time, and it makes me crazy.
Dr. Barbara Fox 43:48
Do you go back with them?
Dr. Judy Morgan 43:49
I haven't insisted on it. I do trust the veterinarian, but I don't like it being that way. I would never send my child, my three year old, or my grandchild into the back with the doctor and the nurse, and say, "Here, have at it, do whatever you want, and, but that's what we're expected to do. And COVID made it much worse, because veterinarians got so used to just taking your animals away and doing things, and they're like, "It's so much easier without the client there, making us crazy, grabbing for the animal. I get it, but that's still, that's my child, right? And I don't want my child taken away, and I don't want you to have free range to just do things without telling me,
Dr. Barbara Fox 44:31
And it happens more than you'd think.
Dr. Judy Morgan 44:33
Oh yeah, so they go to the back, and it's like, oh, while we had them back there, we did blah blah blah. I didn't want that, so I would say really try to push for having things done in front of you, and the other thing I would say is push for where the vaccines are given. Yes, so for way too many years we've grabbed them by the scruff, poked our needles in the scruff between the shoulders, because it's an easy way to restrain them and poke them at the same time. Yeah, it is absolutely the worst place to get a vaccine. Absolutely, the worst.
Dr. Barbara Fox 45:04
You get those fibrosarcomas forming there, those, you know, whatever sarcoma or form there,
Dr. Judy Morgan 45:11
mast cell to whatever wants to form. It's really difficult
Dr. Judy Morgan 45:14
You cannot surgically remove them completely, you know. And it's, it's a terrible thing to say, well, if we give it low on the hind leg and they make a big tumor, we can take the leg off, which for me, that is, and I said this in my very first book, it's so barbaric that you know, talking about blocked cats, and so, oh well, we just cut his penis off so he can now pee, and then we have cats that make fibrosarcomas, we just cut their leg off so that they don't have the cancer anymore, it's like, when did veterinary medicine become about removing body parts.
Dr. Barbara Fox 45:42
We took an oath, Dr. Judy to do no harm.
Dr. Judy Morgan 45:48
So, for me, it's like I want a little more control over the situation. So, especially cats, cats are like, oh, you poked me with something, I don't care if it's an antibiotic or a steroid or a vaccine. Cat's like, oh, that's a tumor, looking for a place to happen,
Dr. Barbara Fox 46:02
exactly.
Dr. Judy Morgan 46:04
So we want to be really careful, so if you are in the room when your animal is injected, or before they take your animal from you, you can say, where are you going to give that vaccine, and it really should be as low as possible on the outside of a hind leg.
Dr. Judy Morgan 46:20
They've actually talked about giving vaccines in the tail of cats, so that we can amputate tails if they make a tumor. I was never brave enough to do that. They have way too many weapons.
Dr. Judy Morgan 46:31
Can you imagine injecting in the tail? I just can't. I don't think that ever really gained any traction, but it seems a little crazy to me. So, so ask, you know, where are you going to give that vaccine, and the other thing I would say is, get one at a time, don't say, "Oh, he's due for, you know, they walk in and they've got a handful of needles, just say, "No, which one can we give today? I'll be back in three weeks, and we'll pick which, you know, it's like I would say to people, well, what's his exposure going to be over the next three weeks? Like, are you going in the city? Are you going to be walking where there's a lot of rat urine? Maybe we should get the lepto now. Oh, no exposure to that. Okay, we'll throw that one aside. But really, talk about what your animal's exposure is and limit it to one at a time.
Dr. Barbara Fox 47:22
I've had people, though, clients that say I don't want to have to try to catch my cat and bring it back or whatever, and then I'll say, you know, I'll kind of put the fear, I'll give.. I don't want to be fear mongering, but I will tell them, and this is the honest to God truth, that if they split the vaccines up, they have a lot less chance of a reaction
Dr. Judy Morgan 47:42
and there are studies on that. Many studies that are published in the veterinary journals about the more you give at one time, yes, the higher the chance of reactions, particularly in a small animal. The other thing is, if they have a reaction, let's say they have that anaphylactic reaction and they hit the floor, and you know they're in shock. If you gave three vaccines, which one did it?
Dr. Judy Morgan 48:07
You don't know, so you know maybe it was the lepto vaccine that caused the problem, but now you're like, well, I can't give them anything, I'm scared to death. I gave him rabies, I gave him distemper, I gave him parvo, I gave him lepto, I gave him Lyme. I don't know what caused it, so you really want to split them up as much, and some of them only come in combo vaccines, unfortunately. And I get it, for cats, like there's a FVRCp, rabies fee, Luke, all in one shot, so you can give them all at one time and only have to poke them once. I get it, cats have weapons, they don't like being poked, but that's just a reaction, looking for a place to happen.
Dr. Barbara Fox 48:43
I tell, and I also tell people, here's another rebuttal I get. Well, I don't want to pay another office visit. So I talked to my practice owner when I was at the conventional clinic, and he agreed that if somebody came back within a four week period from the see, like you're splitting their distemper, parvo, adenovirus, parainfluenza, bordetella, blah blah blah, lime lime rabies. Then we're going to do maybe two on this day, maybe one on this day, maybe one on this day, but if you come back in a four week period, you're not going to get charged another office visit,
Dr. Judy Morgan 49:13
and that's exactly how we did it in my practice. So, and I actually emailed my practice about a month ago to see what they were doing, and see what their prices were, and they, they still have that, so if we would run a titer, if it comes back low, and the animal needs a vaccine, the vaccine's free.
Dr. Barbara Fox 49:32
Oh, that's awesome.
Dr. Judy Morgan 49:33
So they don't pay an office visit to come back, and they don't pay for the vaccine, and so that's a way to say, well, yeah, I mean, we'll see whether they need it or not, and then if they don't need it, it's all good. If they do need it, we're not going to charge you for it, so it's a win-win.
Dr. Judy Morgan 49:49
And the other thing, if people wanted to split things up, and we, we really pushed this because I wanted people to split them up, it's no office visit when you come back, you can prepay for everything that we're going. To do, you don't even have to. Basically, you have to let them know you're here at the front desk, but you don't have to go through the checkout process. So, it wasn't using up doctor time, technician time, reception time. It was just, you're in, you get the vaccine, you're out, and we could split them up, and there was no additional charge to split them. The only inconvenience was you had to put your animal in the car and bring them again.
Dr. Barbara Fox 50:23
Yeah, but that's a smart way to do it. Gosh,
Dr. Judy Morgan 50:25
it was just.. it was for the health of the animals.
Dr. Judy Morgan 50:28
so for those who want to say to their veterinarian, I really don't want to give all these vaccines, or I want to split them up, or I don't want to give them at all. How do you recommend they approach that conversation, and we need to do this in a way that is not going to put the veterinarian on the defensive, is not going to make them mad, is not going to make them throw you out of the office.
Dr. Barbara Fox 50:50
Yeah, one of the things I do for my pet parents is I'll copy that vaccine insert with me that says specifically intended for healthy animals only, and
Dr. Judy Morgan 50:59
you can find those online, all you have to do is look up the drug insert for whatever vaccine it is. They're online, they're available, and you can highlight that part. That's a great idea to take that with you.
Dr. Barbara Fox 51:11
The more scientific documentation you have on that, the better it's going to look for you. And I agree, a lot of my pet parents, I have to kind of bring down a little bit because they're ramped up, and they go in, and they get the veterinarian on the defensive right away, and it's not a good situation, but you know, there are so many resources, and that people can look at. I even tell people, go to the CDC website, and you can pull up vaccine excipients for humans, for the children's vaccines. I said, there's probably not a lot different for our pets, but you can copy that off and say, I don't, Doctor, I don't want these things injected into my animal,
Dr. Judy Morgan 51:47
I don't want aluminum, I don't want mercury, I don't want formaldehyde injected, into my animal,
Dr. Barbara Fox 51:56
and I would just also, I teach people to ask questions, so your veterinarian says, well, Fifi should have that lime shot today, because the ticks are bad, and you could say, well, Fifi doesn't go out, and I don't walk her, she stays in her yard, I don't walk her, you know, I mean,
Dr. Judy Morgan 52:10
I never found a tick on her,
Dr. Judy Morgan 52:13
I mean, I live in North Carolina on a farm,
Dr. Barbara Fox 52:18
Ive seen your farm videos are cute,
Dr. Judy Morgan 52:19
we have all this, these mowed fields, and a very nice fenced mowed backyard for the dogs, and we're surrounded by a ring of woods. Now, if I take my dogs and I walk down in the wooded area, we're coming back with ticks, so we only walk the perimeter of the farm when everything's been mowed, and we stay at least eight feet in from the woods, and we never come home with ticks. I don't want my dogs to have to get Lyme vaccines. I don't want my dogs to get tick-borne diseases. I don't want my dogs to get ticks. My dogs sleep in bed with me. I don't want my dogs to get ticks, and I'm certainly not going to use neurotoxic chemicals on them for ticks, so I don't have a tick problem. Why would I vaccinate for a tick-borne disease.
Dr. Barbara Fox 53:02
Well, and then that's a really good idea. I mean, a good question to ask. And I, you know, I want my pet parents that I work with to be critical thinkers and not just accept it because you got that little postcard in the mail with eight things on it. And we've got a really good story, short story, but I had a little elderly lady that brought, well, I don't know, maybe one, you know, that size, maybe a little bit smaller dog, and she brings her dog, and she's got the postcard, it needs a 40x test, which is the heartworm and the tick test, it needs distemper, adenovirus, parvovirus, parainfluenza, kennel cough, the bordatella shot, Lyme and Lepto, and I, and plus all a fecal sample, and then her year's worth, years worth of clean tick, and whatnot,
Dr. Judy Morgan 53:52
and all this is on the postcard,
Dr. Barbara Fox 53:55
and I looked at her, and I said, well, I started to go through that informed consent type of thing, like what is your dog exposed to? And well, she never goes outside. I said, "What do you mean, never goes outside? Well, I have potty pads in the house. She never goes outside. Does she go out on your porch or in your yard? Nope, she just stays in the house 100% of the time. So I said, "Where is she gonna get exposed to where are we getting the fleas and the leptospirosis?
Dr. Barbara Fox 54:25
and I said your dog is already had concurrent health issues too. I said your dog is already nine years old, it's probably got more than enough immunization for the rest of its life. So I gave her some, it was a whole body support type of supplement for the food, because she needed a little bit of nutritional support
Dr. Barbara Fox 54:46
Yeah, and I think she probably, I think I probably made the clinic lose about $500 right then and there, but I had to do it because my conscience.
Dr. Judy Morgan 54:56
Well, sure,
Dr. Barbara Fox 54:57
this dog didn't need all those things.
Dr. Judy Morgan 54:59
No, absolutely. Absolutely, and so we really have to look at the lifestyle, a tiny dog that lives in a high-rise apartment in the city and does not go outside like that, versus the hunting dog that is in the fields, in the streams, outside in a kennel most the time, that's a very, very different lifestyle, very different exposure to, you know, different diseases, you know,
Dr. Barbara Fox 55:23
but now the A is it the AVMA, aha, AVMA, and correct me if I'm wrong, but those two organizations have now recommended that lepto be a core vaccine.
Dr. Judy Morgan 55:37
Oh yeah, yeah, that they changed it to Lepto should be a core vaccine, which I have never given that to my animals,
Dr. Judy Morgan 55:44
and they have - they actually have changed on their website. It says the core vaccines should be given no more often, except for lepto, should be given no more often than every three to five years. That's still a big window, three to five. Like, how do you decide? And so, if you are getting reminders in the mail for annual boosters of distemper, parvo, hepatitis, rabies, that is absolutely wrong. It goes against the recommendations of our governing bodies, and you don't need to do it. So that's another thing that you can print out that you know from the AVMA website or the AAHA website, AAHA, it's American Animal Hospital Association says right on there not to vaccinate more than every three to five years, that's that's a great piece of paper, along with that drug insert that says to be given only to healthy animals, I think those that's a great reference, Dr. Barb. We really appreciate all of your help. Where can people find you if they are thinking maybe I need to talk to this lady?
Dr. Barbara Fox 56:45
The easiest way, Dr. Judy, and thank you for allowing me to share this is to go to my website, is simply DrBarbFox.com and you can get my contact information there, and my email, and everything.
Dr. Judy Morgan 56:59
And we'll post that in the show notes. Thank you very much for sharing your wealth of knowledge.
Dr. Barbara Fox 57:04
Thank you for having me be here.
Dr. Judy Morgan 57:05
Such a critical thing for people to know,
Dr. Barbara Fox 57:09
something I'm really passionate about,
Dr. Judy Morgan 57:10
and it's a common problem. so thank you very much.
Dr. Barbara Fox 57:13
You're very welcome. Thank you.
OUTRO
Thanks for listening to another great Naturally Healthy Pets episode. Be sure to check out the show notes for some helpful links. And if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. We value your feedback and we'd love to hear from you on how we're doing. Visit DrJudyMorgan.com for healthy product recommendations, comprehensive courses, upcoming events and other fantastic resources. Until next time, keep giving your pet the vibrant life they deserve.
DISCLAIMER
The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Dr. Judy and her guests express their own views, experience and conclusions. Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets neither endorses or opposes any particular view discussed here.
