Intro 00:00
In this episode, Dr. Ruth is going to bring to light a lot of information that we haven't heard before. What is spay neuter syndrome, and what can we do about it? Stay tuned.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Welcome to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Judy Morgan. My guest today, Dr. Ruth Roberts, is a holistic veterinarian with over 30 years of experience helping pets thrive naturally. She created the Holistic Pet Health Coach Certification Program to empower pet parents and professionals to transform pet care through integrative nutrition, lifestyle, and alternative therapies. And it is her belief that together we can revolutionize pet wellness and create healthier, happier lives for our furry friends, which is a really good goal that many of us share. Dr. Ruth, thank you for being my guest today.
Dr. Ruth Roberts
Dr. Judy, I'm delighted to be here.
Dr. Judy Morgan
So we have a really important topic to talk about today, and it actually, believe it or not, is a controversial topic, and it seems like it shouldn't be. But oh my gosh, every time we bring this up, people come out of the woodwork to yell at us, and so today we want to talk about the benefits and downfall of spaying and neutering, and you've actually given a title to this spay neuter syndrome, the hidden health crisis in our pets. So, what exactly is the spay neuter syndrome?
Dr. Ruth Roberts 01:37
So, you and I have been in practice long enough to realize that somewhere around the year 2000, I mean, I literally can remember like 1998 taking a hemangiosarcoma the size of a basketball out of a dog, throwing it in the trash can, cleaning the belly up, sewing the dog up, and he never looked back. And three years later, a golf ball-sized tumor ruptures in the belly, and the dog is dead in six months. So I started seeing that, and a whole host of other health problems: the allergies, the IVDD, the arthritis, the blown cruciates, the hip dysplasia, just skyrocket, and I could not understand what was going on. And we had by that time started doing a really good job of sterilizing pets, and we had a huge overpopulation problem. And I think it's sort of coming back, or never went away fully. But what what happened is it's a double-edged sword. We'd solved one problem, and that's pet overpopulation, and then created a monster of chronic disease, and I don't think it's the only reason, but I think it's a confounding factor with all the other things we talk about: the food, the vaccines, the toxins in the water, the toxins in the air, all of these things. But essentially, the idea is this: we're never allowing our dogs and cats to be endocrine competent, and there must be a price for that. And we, I think, the first sort of scientific proof of that was in 2013 when UC Davis started publishing their papers on case hospital case records for golden retrievers, and what they found was that in intact male and female golden retrievers, their incidence of joint disease and specific types of cancer was massively lower than for spayed and neutered pets. I mean, to the point where for intact male goldies, the incidence of cranial cruciate rupture was zero.
Dr. Judy Morgan 03:42
Well, you know, it's it is interesting that you know looking back early on in practice, I was in general practice, and then I worked in emergency medicine for 10 years, and we didn't see a lot of these things, or we just didn't know how to diagnose them, or I-I don't know, but I-I feel like the what we were what we were doing in practice changed dramatically over the years. I mean, literally, when I first started in practice, we talked about vaccines and heartworm and flea and tick prevention, and I saw a few cancers, but not a ton. And yes, we saw some older arthritic animals, but a lot of what we treated was like traumas, and you know, just sort of day to day life. It wasn't so much of all the orthopedic problems and so much of the the cancers and the you know the deadly things that that we are now seeing, and it's really interesting because thinking back on it and actually in my first book I talk about my grandparents having an old English setter that had was put down because she had mammary cancer, and she was intact at the age of 13-14, whatever it was. And looking back on it, our family dogs were intact. So based on that, I'm going to say that we really didn't start this huge push for everything being spayed and neutered until after I graduated, and I never really thought about that. And you know, fast forward. So I graduated in '84, and fast forward another 15-20, years, and then all of a sudden, it was the pediatric spay neuter, which I worked for our local shelter. There, the county shelter was one mile from my practice, so one day a week was shelter spay neuter day, and they would bring us 20 to 30 animals, many times puppies, kittens that were. We we had a rule; they had to be at least two pounds. Otherwise, we'd send them back. And if you think about it, a two-pound kitten-that's that's a little bit of nothing.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 06:09
Exactly.
Dr. Judy Morgan 06:09
So that means they're about eight weeks old. And there there have been many papers published, particularly, and this is where I'm going to get controversial, and people are going to yell at me, and it's fine. Go ahead and put it in the comments. Where the a lot of papers have been published by shelter medicine veterinarians and people in the the rescue world that it's perfectly safe and fine to spay and neuter these animals, and at that early age, and that we don't see any downfall from that. I would propose that there's a huge downside to that,
Dr. Ruth Roberts 06:55
and I would have to agree. I mean, and I'm guilty as charged too. I did it as well, but we're coming from an era, and and I was in South Carolina, so I think it was probably worse than New Jersey. But but the local shelter took in 45,000 animals a year and euthanized 38,000, and that's horrifying and heartbreaking, and that's not where I want us to go back to.
Dr. Judy Morgan 07:20
Yeah,
Dr. Ruth Roberts 07:20
but I have to agree. It you know, and there's a hard press to go back to that really young spaying and neutering at eight weeks. I mean, we're seeing some of the rescue groups even you know presenting kittens to be spayed and neutered that are way beyond much younger than that desired age and much lower than that weight, and and I think it's clear. I mean, for cats especially, we know that it's going to narrow the urethra for male cats and make them more likely to obstruct and have urinary tract disease.
Dr. Judy Morgan 07:54
You know, my second job out of school, I worked for a small animal veterinarian who had worked in industry for one of the big pharmaceutical companies before opening his practice, so he had an interesting way of looking at some things. But one of the things that, and this was way back in 1986, one of the thing his rules was we would not neuter male cats until they were at least nine months old. Because we wanted to wait for all of those parts and pieces to mature to hopefully help prevent the obstructions. Of course, you know, had we known that we just needed to feed them correctly, we would have solved a lot of that issue. But I have seen papers published that also refute that and say that nope, it doesn't make any difference. There's no change in the diameter of the urethra if we let them, you know, stay intact longer. So I think, like like any kind of research, you can find papers to support either side. What is it you? What what outcome do you want to see? We'll make a paper on that,
Dr. Ruth Roberts 08:59
and that's the truth. And it's hard to sort through what's really true research versus something that's paid to support a position.
Dr. Judy Morgan 09:07
Exactly, exactly. So, so you mentioned a lot of the things that we see, and it's really interesting that this kind of first started with golden retrievers and Rottweilers breeds where we have 1000s and 1000s of animals, and where we have 1000s and 1000s of intact animals because they're on the show circuit. So that gives us a huge group for comparison. So if we took you know a much smaller breed, something like a Portuguese water dog, and we said, "Oh, let's look at the number of intact versus spayed and neutered, and what their their differences are. We don't have nearly as big a subset to look at, but I mean, there's a lot of golden retrievers out there. and there's a lot of intact golden retrievers on the show circuit, so that we can compare. You know, what do they what do they look like and. You know, unfortunately, with with a study where we're looking at large groups of dogs, we cannot control for everybody eating the same thing. We can't control for their environment, their training, that sort of thing. But you know, so we we're we are cherry picking. We're saying intact versus spayed or neutered. So, cruciate ligament ruptures. We know that those occur more often in spayed and neutered dogs. They also occur more often in overweight dogs. And I would argue that spayed and neutered dogs are more likely to be overweight than intact dogs. Yes, so there's a second variable that goes into that already. So, but part of the study that I really like is when we look at animals who are spayed and neutered young, they're more likely to have degenerative joint disease in their hips and their elbows, and so great studies have shown that it's because of the continued growth of the long bones actually pushes them out of their sockets. So my best friend adopted an eight-week-old Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. He came already neutered, And so he's a cavalier. He's a nice, normal 15-pound cavalier, but I call him Styx because his legs are so long. This guy looks like he's walking on stilts. He is the tallest cavalier I think I have ever seen, and it has to be because of that early neuter. His legs just kept growing and growing and growing, and he's so disproportionate.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 11:49
That's really interesting, and that's it. I mean, there is no. I think any time we look at a reason for a specific condition that's a chronic disease or cancer or what have you? There is no one thing. It's all a combination.
But I think this is a thing that we're missing the conversation on.
Dr. Judy Morgan 12:08
Yeah. And you know, it's it's easy to say, oh, if you just control the calories. Well, I can tell you that I've got my my latest addition is an unneutered four year old male, and I got him when he was a youngster, and I left him intact. I I can't put weight on this guy. He's a 10-pound ball of energy, and it is. I think it would be impossible to make him fat. It's just, and it's so different from the ones that I've had or still have that are neutered, where it's so easy to pack the pounds on them.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 12:45
Yeah, and that's part of. I mean, so it's interesting. Virbac makes Suprelorin, which is a gonadotropin-releasing hormone inhibitor, and that's distributed widely in the UK, in the EU, South America, Central America, but not in the U.S. except for ferrets. But what they chose to distribute in the U.S. is a special food for spayed and neutered pets. I know, right? That is lo and behold, lower in carbohydrates. Oh, oh! Really?
Dr. Judy Morgan 13:18
Wait, wait. The pet food industry decided that we needed less carbohydrates. That can't be possible.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 13:23
Virbac did, and and it's it's a you know it's a 1/3 split on the macronutrients protein, fat, carbohydrate.
Dr. Judy Morgan 13:36
So, all right, we're going to get into a little more science here, and so we need to we need to use some initials. So you just brought up one. Let's talk about LH. What is it? How does it work? And why does it factor into this?
Dr. Ruth Roberts 13:53
So luteinizing hormone is in intact animals is going to help the eggs mature, help the sperm mature, keep the reproductive organs in fine shape, and it probably has more uses that we simply are not aware of at this point. But that's mostly associated with reproductive health. So what's interesting when pets are spayed and neutered, this hormone increases dramatically, sometimes 20 to 30 times, and we'll talk about that mechanism in a minute. Unless you want to go for it, no, go for it. Have the whole enchilada. Yeah, let's go for it. So, if we think about all of the systems in the body have control mechanisms, and okay, we've got plenty of this, so we can stop the production of the thing that says to make more, and that's what's happening here. So, in an intact animal, if the levels of progesterone, estrogen, or testosterone start to drop, that cues the hypothalamus to start producing gonadotropin-releasing hormone, or GnRH. So, more initials for the alphabet soup. That then stimulates the anterior pituitary to produce LH to go down to the gonads and start making the hormones maturing, doing all of the work it's supposed to do. And as those hormone levels come back up, that says to the hypothalamus, okay, we're all good. You can knock off the production. So the concept here, and this is what Dr. Michelle Kutsler's paper in 2022 sort of described, was that when that feedback mechanism is gone, meaning the gonads, the ovaries, the testes are removed, there's no longer production of estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, except for at physiologic levels, and so there's nothing to tell the hypothalamus we're all good. Knock it off.
Dr. Judy Morgan 15:47
Exactly, and I mean, so this is. I think this plays right into because I say this all the time. The endocrine system is not one endocrine organ, so it's not one gland that works by itself; they they all interplay. So the hypothalamus is saying, "Hello, ovaries, testes. I'm waiting for a response. And well, they're not there, so not going to happen. But the adrenal glands get pulled into this because they actually produce some estrogen and testosterone type hormones, and I think this also plays into why are we seeing 100,000 new cases of Cushing's disease every year?
Dr. Judy Morgan 16:34
adrenal glands are like, "Hello,
Dr. Ruth Roberts 16:39
but that's it. So that's then that's the same axis: the hypothalamus, pituitary, and adrenal glands. So in this case, now we're talking ACTH, and then the ACTH goes down and just hammers the adrenal glands to do their jobs. And this animal is probably stressed to the gills, and you know all of the things. And now we have a real recipe for disaster, and then the thyroid says, "I quit too. Yeah, I'm burned out.
Dr. Judy Morgan 17:05
Yeah, I'm done. And then we get. Let's see the pancreas. That's another endocrine gland. Oh, wonder why we have a bunch of pancreatitis and seeing more Addison's disease than we ever. Like it's it's just this whole. Oh, and then we'll just throw diabetes in there too. Why not?
Dr. Ruth Roberts 17:20
Well, it's in the pancreas. Let's just lump it all in.
Dr. Judy Morgan 17:22
It's in the pancreas, and you know these animals are overweight, and you know it's it's just a recipe for disaster. Okay, when we come back, we are going to talk about comparisons with some other countries that maybe don't believe in this early spay neuter and what they see differently, and then at some point we're going to talk about how we can help our animals who have already been subjected to this, and what might we be able to do differently. Stay tuned.
PRODUCT SPOTLIGHT #1
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Dr. Judy Morgan
Welcome back to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. My guest, Dr. Ruth Roberts, and I are discussing spay neuter syndrome, and this is a very controversial subject. A lot of people get mad when we talk about the downside of spay and neuter. So we will be talking about some alternatives. And like I said, I have an intact male. And by the way, he doesn't get loose. He doesn't run through the neighborhood. He's never going to have a chance to breed another dog in his entire life. So cool your jets. Gonna be fine. So. All we need is responsible pet ownership. Wouldn't that be a wonderful thing? Shocking, shocking. Yeah, I did. I used to do a ton of school talks, and I remember doing a career day in a junior high near my clinic. And this one little boy came up to me, and I knew the family very well because they were also in the horse world with us, and he came up to me and he said very proudly, "Our dog has had 80 puppies. And this was a mixed breed dog that just they had a male and they had a female, and they just kept making puppies. And he was very proud of the fact that their dog had had 80 mixed breed puppies, and you know they had found homes for them, but still, that's that's irresponsible pet ownership. That's a problem. That's a problem, right? So just think of every person, every family who had two unneutered, unsterilized animals had 80 puppies.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 21:02
It's a problem.
Dr. Judy Morgan 21:03
you can see how it gets out of control really quickly.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 21:06
Yeah, yeah, and then and then add in cats who can do it twice a year, and then we're really off to the races. Yeah, yeah, really nuts.
Dr. Judy Morgan 21:12
Anyway, so I get it. I understand the arguments, but I think we could just let's teach some more responsibility and let's talk about options. So let's talk about countries in the UK,
Dr. Ruth Roberts 21:26
right? So, so UK, Europe, there, they've never really adapted the whole spay, neuter, everything approach, and in fact, the World Small Animal Veterinary Association has published guidelines about spaying and neutering this year, recommending that unless it's medically necessary, there's not really a good reason to do it
Dr. judy Morgan 21:48
Yay, that's a way helpful.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 21:49
So the thing that's interesting is that people-it's just like-would you give your 16-year-old son that just got his license the keys to your Camaro,
Dr. Ruth Roberts 22:02
no boundaries, right? So we have to teach these guys how to behave nicely in public, and I think there's we're because we're not a culture that's out and about and walking everywhere with our families, with our dogs, we just don't have that frame of reference. I mean, when I finished school in 1990 in South Carolina, not so good. These dogs are outside, but they're chained up. They're in a fence. Often they were often without adequate shelter from the sun, adequate water, that kind of stuff. So they did as long as they didn't get hit by a car, they did live longer, but it's about creating a culture of living with the dogs and the cats in a healthy manner. So, new ground rules.
Dr. Judy Morgan 22:51
New ground rules. Yeah, I the same thing. My my practices were in southern New Jersey, which is actually a very poor area. It's not a wealthy area. A lot of the animals lived more like the animals in South Carolina. They lived outside. They were farm dogs or they were chained, and a lot of them were not spayed and neutered. But there was a lot of breeding that was not controlled. There was also a lot of health issues for these animals. You know, heartworm was a huge problem. It it was really a lot more like being in the south in that we had a lot of heartworm. We had a lot of hookworm, whipworm. You know, a lot of a lot of problems because people were not bringing the animals into their homes as family members as much-that's changed a lot in the past 20 years. Yes, you know, in all areas of the country, it has changed a lot, and so we do look at our animals differently, and we do want them to be good citizens. And you know, a lot of people do not want to deal with a dog going into heat. They don't want to deal with some of the traits of male animals. Which, by the way, behavior really has nothing to do with being spayed or neutered. Great studies showing that aggression in male dogs is actually a bigger problem in neutered dogs than in intact dogs, so we can't use that as an argument for. And that, sadly, in the veterinary world, that is so commonly. So let's let's bust a couple of myths. Prostate cancer is more common in neutered males than intact males. Behavior problems, including aggression, are a much bigger problem in neutered males than intact males. We have studies to show that.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 24:51
Right on. That's. I mean, it's shocking that our colleagues are still saying, "Oh, you need to neuter because otherwise your wise your dog is going to be aggressive." And it's just like,
Dr. Judy Morgan 25:01
yeah, yeah, not true. So when we look at, so I did a a blog a while ago where I referenced studies from Sweden and Norway. They have so many intact dogs because, like you said, they they really don't spay or neuter unless there's a medical reason for it, and it was really interesting to look at the statistics because the arguments on the female side for why we should spay, your veterinarian is going to tell you, oh, they're they're so likely to get a pyometra, which is an infected uterus and requires emergency surgery. Oh, they're more likely to develop mammary cancer if they're intact, well, studies out of Sweden and Norway don't show those to be facts.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 25:48
That's it. I mean, I think there's there is an increased so the the downfall of being intact is there is somewhat of an increased incidence of breast cancer, and there is pyometra. If you don't have a uterus, you can't have pyometra, and but it's not astronomically high. No, and I would much rather deal with breast cancer than hemangiosarcoma, osteosarcoma, lymphoma, mast cell cancer.
Dr. Judy Morgan 26:13
Yeah, because actually, mammary cancer, if detected early, is very very treatable.
Dr. Judy Morgan 26:21
so problems, problems, problems. So, what are what are some of the ways? Let's talk about alternatives. So, we've done quite a few blogs and videos talking about other ways that we can sterilize our animals, other than completely removing the uterus, the ovaries, and the testes. So instead of removing all of the gonads, what are some of your favorite ways to to alternatively sterilize so we don't have the population problem, but we leave everything intact,
Dr. Ruth Roberts 27:01
right? So, I mean, vasectomy for male dogs-that is beyond simple to do, and essentially, just like humans, so men would go and get a vasectomy; they're not going to be making kids. Similarly, for dogs, what's discussed mostly is ovary sparing spay, which removes the uterus, and there are some potential health problems with that as well. And so we can just tie the fallopian tubes, or do what's called a salpingectomy, which is to remove the fallopian tube. And what that means is there's no way for the egg to get from the ovary down into the uterus to be fertilized.
Dr. Judy Morgan 27:41
You know these procedures are not taught in the vet schools, and I and I know that there's there's a push now to try to to get that into the vet schools. For instance, my daughter decided that she was going to offer up one of her dogs for our veterinarian to do her very first vasectomy, and so we sent her to the Parsimus Foundation to watch the videos. And you know, you can find anything on YouTube. By the way, if you need to know how to do a surgery, you can find it on YouTube. But she watched a bunch of videos, and then she actually let us come in and film her doing her very first vasectomy on my daughter's dog. It went fine. She did great. She had a little trouble finding it on one side, but once she did, it was like, "Oh, okay, great, easy, you know, not that big deal. But it's not taught. It's not even talked about. I don't think really in the vet schools.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 28:37
No, and that's the problem: is that this conversation is unfortunately relatively new in the United States, so we're having to kind of drag our colleagues kicking and screaming into a new way of thinking about sterilization.
Dr. Judy Morgan 28:53
Do you know if these procedures are done more in Europe than they are here?
Dr. Ruth Roberts 28:58
They just don't.
Dr. Judy Morgan 28:59
They just don't because they just don't sterilize
Dr. Ruth Roberts 29:01
because they know how to deal with that intact population. So when the when the girls are in heat, they just stay home for three weeks.
Dr Judy Morgan 29:11
You know what's really interesting? I read an article not too long ago and did a video on doing epididemectomies in cats.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 29:20
Interesting,
Dr. Judy Morgan 29:21
and basically it said this is so much easier than doing a vasectomy, so much easier than doing a neuter. Even that if we just did epididemectomies on cats, it literally is like a two-minute procedure, and then they're basically shooting blanks.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 29:39
Well, and that's where I know other other techniques like calcium chloride injection into the testes have been used. But if you
Dr. Judy Morgan 29:45
that sounds so painful,
Dr. Ruth Roberts 29:47
Yes it does not sound good. But if you just you know did that or use some other agent that would create some scarring or fibrosis, super easy. And then there's no worry about any. Reproduction going on.
Dr. Judy Morgan 30:01
So you talked about the LH being so high. What are the side effects of the high LH? What what what damage does that cause in the body? Do we think that is causing these cruciate ruptures and contributing to the cancers?
Dr. Ruth Roberts 30:15
Yeah. So the other thing that Dr. Kutschler discussed in that paper was that yes, the levels were high, and the real issue is that it induces receptors for LH in tissues that should not have them. And you know, so name a chronic disease, and I will bet you dollars to donuts there is an LH receptor in that tissue. So we know in the brain, in the adrenal glands, so both Cushing's and Addison's disease in the skin, in the bone marrow, in the white cells, in the gut, in the liver, in the kidneys, in the joints, and everywhere. So this is what is creating the issue. It's not the hormone itself; it's that it's inducing the receptors, and then the tissue that the receptor is in is having an altered response to its environment. And you know. And then regarding chemical sterilization, the only thing out there is Suprelorin (Deslorelin), and it is a gonadotropin releasing hormone, but it's like an implant that lasts for six to 12 months, depending on the size. It's only licensed for use in ferrets in the United States, but there are many veterinarians that are using it off-label for dogs, both male and female. And so this is a way, especially if you've got a potential breeding animal, for them to sort of take a rest on a few heat cycles and then potentially breed again, or just continue to use the implant long term for sterilization.
Dr. Judy Morgan 31:52
Interesting. So if we were to use that implant to sterilize them, it's basically stopping them from releasing eggs and sperm.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 32:03
That's correct.
Dr. Judy Morgan 32:05
What downside does it have as far as effect on other tissues? And you know, is does it increase the risk of pyo? Does it increase the risk of mammary cancers? What else do we know about this?
Dr. Ruth Roberts 32:18
So with pyometra, because the dog is not cycling, I think the risk is relatively small. The risk for mammary cancer occurs after the first or the second heat cycle. So the interesting thing is, is the papers that come out about breast cancer exact same statistics when I finished veterinary school in 1990. First heat 12% incidence, second heat 18 to 25% percent incidence of breast cancer, and then same stats: 50% benign, 50% malignant. Of the malignant ones, 25% are local. 25% have the possibility to metastasize.
Dr. Judy Morgan 32:58
So when you, by the time you finish cutting up all those pieces of the pie, it's actually a small percentage that's going to be something aggressive that is going to spread.
So let's talk cats for a second because mammary cancer in cats is a totally different ball game.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 33:13
Yes, it's horrifying.
Dr. Judy Morgan 33:15
It's horrifying. 95% chance of being malignant, spreading, killing the cat. So, for our for our male cats, absolutely we could do vasectomy, epididectomy. We could we have ways of sterilizing them, but leaving their hormones intact. Unfortunately, their urine smells pretty bad. I've had I've had clients who have had intact male cats. For had one client, her intact male cat lived into his 20s, survived cancer. She did all holistic treatments for him. She's an amazing owner and really dedicated to all of her cats, but this cat in particular. But our female cats, it's going to be a different story. I mean, we just we can't it. We can't risk the mammary cancer problem with them.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 34:04
Yes, and and that's that's a great point because most of this research has been around dogs, and so to be fair, I don't remember the statistics in terms of percentage of intact cats that female cats that develop mammary cancer. I don't know if you've got that.
Dr. Judy Morgan 34:19
I don't have it off the top of my head, but I know it's higher than dogs.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 34:22
Yes, it is. So going back to the GnRH, the thing that's the downside of it long term is because it's suppressing hormone production, they're going to start to look like spayed and neutered dogs in terms of muscle loss, and I think brain acuity, those sorts of things, but they won't get the side effects of having massively elevated LH.
Dr. Judy Morgan 34:49
There's always a trade-off. This is the don't fool with Mother Nature because we we can't do it as well.
Dr. Ruth Roberts
No, no, we're just we're making our best. Yes, at this point, because there is not very much research.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Well, and I think we need a lot more research, and you know, in the meantime, we're going to continue with early spay and neuter because we really have this this problem of pet owner education, and it also brings up for for pet owners who want to have their animals intact, many boarding, grooming, daycare facilities are not going to allow you to bring an intact dog.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 35:31
That's right, because their insurance companies won't allow them to do it. So that's where you, if you're going to have an intact dog, you have to make an arrangement with a pet sitter, a dog walker, something like this, in order for your dog to be taken care of if you need to travel or what have you.
Dr. Judy Morgan 35:49
Yeah, I mean, even for people who live in the city, and the dog park is your only way to let your dog off leash to get some exercise,
Dr. Ruth Roberts 35:56
it's a problem.
Dr. Judy Morgan 35:57
That would be a big problem. Yeah, so we need educate. It it really boils down to education across the board.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 36:05
Yes, and this is going to take another 10 to 15 years, sadly, to really start to shift attitudes.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Probably more. You're being very generous with that 10 years.
Dr. Judy Morgan 36:17
So optimistic. Oh man, we need to take a break. When we come back, we're going to talk about how to support your pet who probably already is spayed or neutered, or if you're planning to get a pet and you know that you're going to have to go with spay or neuter for whatever reason. Let's talk about what we can do to make their lives better and really support them. Stay tuned.
PRODUCT SPOTLIGHT #2
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Dr. Judy Morgan
Welcome back to the Naturally Healthy Pets Podcast. We've been discussing my guest, Dr. Ruth Roberts, and I the pitfalls, downfalls, and benefits of spaying and neutering our pets benefits. Well, you don't get 80 puppies. That is true, or 100 kittens. I mean, at our farm, we went from three cats to 13 like that because two pregnant mamas showed up at the same time. They found the grocery store. But you know what? We just we kept everybody and said, "Okay, you're all getting spayed and neutered because we don't need 300 cats. And now we have a very nice little farm clouder. That they're they're really funny. Like if another cat wanders onto the property, they are told to leave very quickly by the clouder. They do not like outsiders. There you go. It makes it really easy. We haven't had too many show up. We have this one black cat who shows up every once in a while. His little tuxedo is very cute. He's unneutered, and if I could ever get close enough, he would become neutered. But he shows up every now and then, and they they finally will allow him to kinda be part of the group. Yeah, he's kind of like okay, you're you're over there. But so, yeah, I don't I don't really want 100 cats. What about for all those people who are saying, oh my gosh, you know, now my dog or well, dogs mostly because we know that cats are a different animal and not spaying our female cats can lead to some issues down the line. They're they're they're very different, so it's a different conversation. But so many of these animals, and this does hold true for our cats, so many that we get through rescues or that we get through the the local shelters, humane societies, these animals are being spayed and neutered very, very, very young, and so we have a lot of them that are walking around on stilts, like my little friend sticks. That you know they're just disproportionately long legged for what they should be. And we know that it's because these long bones keep growing, and now we know that we've got high LH. The interesting thing is, we never test hormones in our in our pets. Why?
Dr. Ruth Roberts 40:12
Not unless we're doing breeding, because why? Why else would you need to?
Dr. Judy Morgan 40:18
well, you know, it's an interesting thing, and now I guess I'll get a little bit personal. But for I'm I'm older. For those of you who don't know, I'm in my okay second half of my 60s. So, and no one ever tested my hormone levels until about two years ago, and I don't know why it's not part of what we do for. I mean, jeez, if we're not doing it for people, we're certainly not doing it for animals.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 40:45
Well, we're not doing it for women,
Right, unless they're complaining, right? And and I'm with you.
Dr. Judy Morgan 40:50
I guess I complained loud enough that somebody finally heard me, and oh my gosh! So talking about these high LH levels, when you're when the ovaries or the gonads stop working, then the other glands start spitting out hormones like the LH, like nobody's business. It's like you know, and I'm talking to the doctor saying, "Well, how do I bring this stimulating hormone down? He's like, "Well, your ovaries don't work, so we're going to have to replace something. Otherwise, it's just going to keep spitting it out, And that causes problems.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 41:25
It does cause problems, and I am right there with you. I am. Will be 62 next week, and thank God for bioidentical hormone replacement, right? So, and this is the concept. It's like, okay, why, why are we not doing this for animals? And this is a question I've been puzzling on since 2012. I did the Institute for Functional Medicine course and talked to a bunch of folks there, and they're like, "Huh, I don't know what to tell you. And the only thing they could come up with was Turner syndrome in women, where there's I think it's an extra X, so XXX, and as a result, no hormones are produced, and these women typically die at 35-40, Oops, and so they're you know they're trying to figure out how to support these folks. The other thing that makes it difficult is that LH testing. There's a bedside test or tableside test that tells you if it's high, but all all that we know is it's greater than one. The actual test that is quantitative that was run by Colorado State, because it's not being used, they can't afford to do it because it's over $250 just for them to run a test. So it's a research only, so that's a whole nother bag of wax. If we could quantitate, oh my God, your dog's LH is 15 times normal. Here's some things we can do to bring it down. Then that gives veterinarians a tool to understand what they're doing, and I think, and I get it, you know, because we're kind of flying blind when we start to look at potential hormone replacement therapy. So there was a case study that Linda Brent with Parsimus Foundation published in 21. Actually, was her own dog Toby. Toby got neutered, got fat, got grouchy, got afraid of everything, had a lot of joint pain, back pain, and just allergies. You know, the whole long list of awful stuff, and she started working with her veterinarian, who was very kind to actually help her start testosterone cypionate injections, and that made Toby feel better. But they were still able to test for LH, and the LH was not coming down significantly at that low initial dose, so they ended up using Suprelorin to stop the gonadotropin-releasing hormone production and drop the LH within two to three months. Toby is feeling well. He is not afraid of everybody. He's regained muscle. He's not painful. He's not itching. He's a happy dog again.
Dr. Judy Morgan 44:03
It's really interesting. And Peter Dobias did a very similar thing with his dog. That you know he was having issues as well, and he said, "I'm going to try the hormone replacement. And I think it was based on that study, and said it made a world of difference.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 44:20
Yeah, and Peter and I have talked about this multiple times, but he was doing. He thought he had it all dialed in for Pax, and you know, beautiful hair coat, very vivacious, very active, very strong. And he said, "Okay, you're two. I'm going to neuter you. And in four months, Pax was having joint problems. I think he was. He went out for a hike. Pax bailed out of the truck to come for the hike and collapsed on the ground. His coat looked horrible. He just didn't feel good, and that's precisely it. He got in touch with Linda Brent, got the protocol, started Pax on testosterone and Suprelorin, and because Peter is Czech, he can get Suprelorin when he's back in Czech Republic, and and I think it took something around the six months, and Pax was back to that beautiful dog pre-neuter. But this is now a lifetime necessity for Pax to feel well.
Dr. Judy Morgan 45:15
And so, do you think that that would be true for like? Do you think it affects some dogs more than it affects others? Because I know there's a lot of people with neutered dogs that would say, "Oh, my dog seems fine. He's got energy. His coat's good. You know, I'm not having allergy problems. Whatever. Is it? Do you think that we have different LH levels in those dogs that are causing that, or is
Dr. Ruth Roberts
it so right? It's it's still all the things like is that dog eating fresh food that's healthy. Well, look at Pax. I mean, we know he was eating fresh food. I you know, and to have a fresh fed, minimally or not vaccinated dog who you know lives in you know a beautiful natural life, not using any chemicals or anything. For that dog to kind of fall apart,
Dr. Ruth Roberts 46:12
there's got to be epigenetic reasons, and this is this is the issue. So I think there's so much we can like pull out individual pieces that we can say, okay, this we know because here's some science and here's some proof. But like the endocrine system, all of these relationships are so incredibly complex; it's beyond our comprehension how to put them together. Yeah. So you know, is that dog that's neutered just taking walks around the block once or twice a day. You know what is that? We don't know. We really don't know.
Dr. Judy Morgan
True. So for somebody whose pet has been spayed or neutered, particularly if they were done early, which you know, looking my entire career, spay or neuter by six months. That's what we were taught. Yeah.
And unfortunately, it just kept backing up and backing up until we were doing these animals at at eight weeks, which we did not do that for our, you know, clients. But for the shelter animals, we didn't really have a choice. And in my practice, the last few years before I left, we were at least looking at keeping them intact Longer,
Dr. Judy Morgan 47:22
but it was amazing, particularly for large breed dogs, when the owners would opt to spay or neuter them somewhere in middle age, so four to eight years of age. We would watch them pretty closely because I would say that the majority of them. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the majority within six months they're thyroid tanked,
Dr. Ruth Roberts 47:45
and that doesn't surprise me at all. And I saw similar things. We were just starting to get them to wait to at least 18 months, and then you know if you can learn how to live with an intact animal, then five years or more doesn't seem undoable. But there's a there's a couple of factors to look at. So one is that so many of our pets are experiencing dysbiosis; their ability to detoxify themselves is limited, and if one of the things that can help support a neutered pet is the liver clearing excess hormone, and that liver is already up to its eyeballs in garbage. That's not going to happen, and so I think that may be part of the reason why some dogs are okay and some dogs really suffer quickly. So that's one of the. I mean, you hear all of us say this all the time: fresh food support the microbiome, support the detoxification system, and if we do those things and control inflammation, we're going to make everything not as bad and helpfully actually keep that dog healthy.
Dr. Judy Morgan 48:56
Yeah, yeah, absolutely true. Do you have different recommendations for spay neuter? I'm going to talk dogs. I mean, cats. We've already said let's keep keep the little boys intact for as close to year as you can. For the girls, probably going to need to spay by a year. Cats cats. We're probably looking at that that one year mark as maybe being the magic number for dogs. Do you have different recommendations, small breed versus large?
Dr. Ruth Roberts 49:30
Part of it is actually the largest part is what the owner can and cannot handle. I mean that's the truth, right? True. If you have a little Chihuahua that's just running around and humping everything in sight. That's just like oh no,
Dr. Judy Morgan 49:48
you know what? My girls hump, my boys hump. It doesn't matter if they're intact or neutered. It's just a thing. We had a spayed female dog who marked. Urine marked more than any dog I've ever had, so yeah.
Dr. Ruth Roberts
There's and that's it. It's like there's the balance between what the hormones are saying and what the behavior dominance behavior is saying, right? Exactly. Yeah. So the so I think that's the first discussion: is what can the pet parent handle? Yeah. And what's their experience been like? If they just had a golden retriever that died of hemangiosarcoma, and I've just told them about this, they're going to delay it as long as they possibly can in this new dog.
Dr. Judy Morgan 50:37
Yeah, I mean, so we have good studies in goldens, roties,
Dr. Ruth Roberts 50:41
Labradors.
Dr Judy Morgan 50:42
Labradors, and there was a like Visla's, or it was a it was a smaller group breed, but again, it was another large large breed,
Dr. Ruth Roberts 50:53
right? And then there was the study that looked at multiple breeds and and sort of set up. Yeah,
Dr. Judy Morgan 51:00
I I remember seeing the chart. She was just like, "This is when you should spay this one, based on you know the breed and looking at at studies. And I mean, I would say that large breed dogs in general are more prone to hemangiosarcoma.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 51:14
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, can can you think of a Chihuahua that's had hemangiosarc?
Dr. Judy Morgan 51:19
No, and I never saw hemangios in small breeds, but I have seen like in the Cavalier forums that there have been some Cavaliers with Hemangiosark, and every time I see one, I'm kind of like, really? Like, we just don't see that in them. So it's definitely a large breed problem. I think if I had large breed dogs, I would really be looking at what what can I do to give them every advantage because to have our to to have people say that a large breed average life expectancy is seven to nine years to me that's crazy,
Dr. Ruth Roberts 51:54
and that used to be the giant breeds. right. So we're going backwards.
Dr. Judy Morgan 51:58
Well, I don't even like to to see that as an average for the giant breeds, because I've had Great Danes and Mastiffs that are 13,14, 15,16,
Dr. Judy Morgan 52:11
So why is that not the norm? Why? Why has it changed? I mean, a lot of it definitely is genetics. We're we're breeding wrong. Yeah. We're not breeding for longevity. I think. I think if I was if if I was going to go buy a Great Dane, I would have to say to the breeder, "And what's the average life expectancy for all of your lines?
Dr. Ruth Roberts 52:33
Well and and that's it. So I mean, so many of these breeds they're bred for looks, so that they match what the current AKC blah blahs. Anyway, yeah, that's a whole nother bag of wax. Yeah, but but I think you're right. The large breeds are the ones that are suffering with hamangiosarks. I'm seeing quite a lot of even small and middle middle sized dogs with lymphomas, mast cell tumors, and then all of the other things, the IBS, the IBD, the anxiety, the cognitive dysfunction, and all of the other-I mean, aside from cancer-things that make us and our colleagues just frustrated. that we can't get this sorted.
Dr. Judy Morgan 53:15
Yeah. Well, and and this this is a big piece of the puzzle that I think hasn't been looked at nearly enough, So, if we come back in 10 years and have this discussion, will it be different?
Dr. Ruth Roberts 53:30
Somewhat. It just depends on it. Just depends on how so how loud pet parents get about this. Yeah, and that's truly what's pushing change in our profession.
Dr. Judy Morgan 53:41
That is true. You know, the pet parents are getting louder about the food. I think a lot of pet parents, and of course, I have a skewed view. A lot of pet parents are getting louder about the over vaccination and the use of pesticides and chemicals. And I would I would encourage everyone watching to get louder about all of those things because I think we need to make some changes. And I think you know certainly talking to your veterinarian, whether they're holistic or traditional, no matter where they fall on the spectrum about really individualized care. I get so mad at the corporate one size fits all. This is this is what we do for all dogs this age. I mean,
Dr. Ruth Roberts 54:34
yeah, and I mean it's that's what's taking us to the morass that's now occurring in human medicine, where it's all what the computer says,
Dr. Ruth Roberts 54:44
and yeah, but the the thing is, is that if you start having conversations with your veterinarian, you can take them information from the Parsimus Foundation website at parsimus.org and present them with science. So they're not like oh, just that quack job, Doctor Ruth out there saying that stuff, so that you can actually show them the science. And likewise, the other thing is, I think we're at the dawn of hormone replacement therapy for pets. There, Doctor Brent published a second paper looking at testosterone cypionate, and for safety, and so at 1x, which was 0.5 milligrams per kilogram of body weight, 3x that and 5x that, and what she found was that there was safety at all levels in terms of no adverse side effects, no changed liver or kidney function, no changes in the white cell count, and what she was also finding is that the 3x level and the 5x level, it was sufficient to start bringing luteinizing hormone down. So we're starting to restore that feedback mechanism to help the dog not only look better and feel better, but also restore some semblance of balance to the endocrine system.
Dr. Judy Morgan 56:05
Great. So we're getting some answers for the boys now. We need to get some answers for our girls.
Dr. Ruth Roberts 56:10
Yes.
Dr. Judy Morgan 56:11
And we'll get everything back on track. But I think there's a lot more discussion that needs to be had about this. Dr. Ruth, thanks for the work that you're doing for bringing this to light and helping to educate people. Of course, everybody, their head is spinning right now. Going now, I don't know what to do. Love your pets, feed them well, avoid all those toxins in their life. It'll all be better. Thank you very much.
Dr. Ruth Roberts
My pleasure.
OUTRO/DISCLAIMER
The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. You're encouraged to do your own research, and should not rely on this information as professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Dr Judy and her guests express their own views, experience and conclusions. Dr Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets neither endorses or opposes any particular view discussed here.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
