Intro 00:00
Are you worried about health and longevity in your pets and yourself? Do you understand the changes that you may need to make in your own home environment to encourage gut health and healing for yourself and for your pets? Today we're going to do a deep dive into that. So stay tuned.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Welcome to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Judy Morgan, and have we got some fun for you today? My guest, Johnna Devereaux, MS CPN, is a trusted clinical pet nutritionist with over a decade of experience guiding pet parents toward science-informed, holistic nutrition strategies that support long-term health and vitality in dogs and cats. But she's taken a turn in her life after years of pet parents asking for guidance on their health. She expanded her expertise by earning a Master of Science in Human nutrition, and so I see this conversation going a lot of different directions today. So stay tuned because you're you're going to learn something for yourself, for your pets. This is the whole family today. She's been featured in Good Housekeeping, Fox News, Daily Mail, PBS's Animal Talk, The American Kennel Club. You get it. She's pretty smart, and she's got lots of great information for us today. Johnna, thanks for coming to the studio today.
Johnna Devereaux
Thanks for the invite.
Dr. Judy Morgan
So it's really interesting that your journey has taken you from helping animals to helping people. So I have a great story along those lines. I had a client with a dog with cancer, and so a new client comes in with this older dog. She's got cancer, and so we had to revamp everything for the dog because they had been going to a traditional veterinarian, of course, getting all the vaccines every year and feeding the the recommended kibble and you know all these drugs and supplements and or not supplements, drugs, and things that were suppressing the dog's immune system, making things worse. And I said, okay, we're going to start from scratch. And the first thing we got to do is we've we've got to get good nutrition into this pet so that we can help the animal fight the cancer, go through all the supplements that we want, really revamped everything, And the dog did not die of the cancer. Had another couple of years of really good quality life. We didn't make the cancer go away, but you know you can live with it if you find the right way to do that. And so the dog passed away after a couple of years, and then I didn't see the clients for about a year, and they came in and they had a new dog, a young dog, and I didn't recognize the woman. And you know, we're talking, and I'm like, "Man, you seem familiar, and I know you've been here before, but I'm just I'm not putting this together. And she said, "Oh well, I'll help you. And she gets a picture out of her wallet, and she says, "This is a picture of my husband and I when we got married, which was not too long before we met you with the last dog. And between the two of them, they had lost 180 pounds in the year that I didn't see them. And so she pulled out the picture, and I said, "Oh, now I know who you are, but she looked totally different. And I said, "What happened? And she said, "Well, you designed this great nutrition. We were going through all this effort to cook really good stuff for our dog, and to really make sure that she was getting good nutrition to support her body. And we kind of looked at each other one day and said, "Why are we doing this for the dog and not for ourselves? They joined the gym. They totally changed how they were eating. No more fast food. No more you know getting everything from the local fast food restaurant for every meal, and their health was completely changed. Their bodies were completely changed, and their lives were completely changed. Now I didn't have anything to do with that, other than I helped their dog, and then a light bulb went on. So I think that you now with this master's in human nutrition being able to help the whole family-that's got to be so cool.
Johnna Devereaux 04:17
It is, and I mean, and bingo and bravo to those people, and to you for being the catalyst because how cool is it that the inspiration for that was our pets?
Johnna Devereaux 04:28
Which is really what started me down this path. Right, my boy Diego that I did lose to cancer started me on the path of becoming a canine and feline nutritionist. And when I lost him, I went into deep, deep grief for a good six months. I was barely getting off the couch. Alcohol was how I was kind of solving my own problems. I gained about 25 pounds. oh yeah! No, it was. Well, I mean, you sit on the couch and you drink alcohol, and then you eat. That's what's going to happen, right? I was walking my my other dog every day, sometimes upwards of 19 miles, because I could not be in my house without him. And it was that moment of, what am I doing? I owe this to Lola. I owe this to myself, right? And I was like, I thought I had eaten really healthy throughout my life, and then I'm like, you know what? I need to do something different. I want to help the people that I've been working with in the last decade because I would help their cats and their dogs, and they would see how you know, like like your clients, how they saw major changes in their pets, and then they'd be like, well, now do me, and I'm like, well, I can't. Like, I don't, I don't do humans. And you say that enough, and I am not a. I can't. I mean, I can. And it just kind of. I don't know. I'm gonna say it was divine inspiration from Diego on the other side saying, "Mom, just go do it. And I told my husband. He said, "You're crazy, and I'm like, yep. And I ended up enrolling, and that was that. Actually, my entry level, my entry letter to apply at the University of Bridgeport for this master's program had Diego all over it. And they called and they're like, you know, this is human nutrition, right? I'm like, oh yeah, no, I know, but he is like, this is this was my journey, and this is where I'm at now, and I have completely changed how I eat. I eat so much healthier. I've lost all the weight again, and now I am inspiring pet parents to be their healthiest version. Because let's be honest, we can spend all of our money and all of our time investing in our dogs and our cats to make them their healthiest version, but if we get sick, if something happens to us, no one is going to take care of them the way that we do. So we owe it to our pets, our beloved pets, to take better care of ourselves. And if that is the only inspiration that I can give to a pet parent out there, please make changes. You don't have to necessarily start going to the gym and revamping everything, but taking one small step starts getting you in that direction, and then you start feeling better, and then you start layering up all of the different aspects, and suddenly you find yourself a year later, 100 pounds down or whatever it might be, and that is that's the natural trajectory that like makes me passionate and just makes me love what I do.
Dr. Judy Morgan 07:23
Yeah, you know it's so true, and it's one of the things for people with senior pets, particularly bigger dogs who are getting weak in the hind end. And people are like, "Oh, just sling a towel under their back end and help them along. Well, first of all, that's not good biomechanics for the dog, but it's horrible biomechanics for you, and so I've said this to people for so many years. Look, you have an an old dog that's down that needs help. Make sure that you get the right equipment so that your biomechanics are being used correctly. Because if if the dog is down and you're also down, nobody's getting that dog outside. Nobody's getting you outside, and it's a really bad combination. So it's you know think of it the the speech you get on the airplane put your own oxygen mask on first, then you're able to help others. If you're struggling to help your kids and everybody around you, and then you run out of oxygen because you didn't put your oxygen mask on, now all of you are in trouble.
Dr. Judy Morgan 08:23
So I I really love the analogy of take care of yourself. And it's it's really interesting. We had a coaching team that we were working with. They were the coaches, and they came to do something with my vet team, and I was like, "Yeah, you know, we need a team building, whatever. And they came, and they had dogs, and they were health nuts. They were at the gym all the time. They were very careful about what they ate. And when she came and saw what we were doing with the animals, she said, "Wow, you know, I I go to the grocery store and I buy the food that says holistic, natural. It's got that in the name, and I just figured that meant it was a high quality food because that's what I'm buying for my family is holistic, natural, whatever. And she was so careful about picking things up for her kids, and thought she was doing a good job because she was reading the labels. Which, by the way, those names mean nothing in the pet food world. So holistic, natural. You can put that on
Johnna Devereaux 09:30
asterisk. Very, very little in the human world as well. There's a lot of parallels.
Dr. Judy Morgan 09:36
That is so true. And you know, I'm thinking that you know, like that when you go through the processed food aisle, the crackers, the cookies, the chips, whatever, and it says lower fat. Oh, it's still high in fat, lower salt. Oh, it still has more sodium than you need in a whole day in one serving, but it's lower than the other stuff, which is still very, very scary. If we could get truth in labeling, wouldn't that be. Amazing.
Johnna Devereaux 10:00
I mean, yes, it would be amazing, but I think the problem would be most people wouldn't be able to understand it, right? Because there's only so much space on packaging, and you have so many different aspects that different people would be looking at. That I think that would become difficult. You know, I am a big advocate of I just shop the perimeter.
Johnna Devereaux 10:21
I've been doing it for decades, but until you start going down that path, you know, of understanding even where it with meat is in the perimeter, but where that meat is being sourced from and how those animals are treated, right? Like I shop when I say I shop in the perimeter, I get my vegetables there in the organic sections. I get my cheese there if it's if I can get raw cheese, if not, I'm going to you know a regenerative farm that I can get raw cheese from, and then I go to the frozen section because I can get some good organic stuff from the frozen section. But like, I get my eggs from local farms, I get my meat from regenerative farms, and it has on a cellular level changed everything about me. I have people telling me I'm reverse aging, and I'm like, well, I don't know what that's about, but yet I do, right? Like I really do understand it. And the funny thing is, I mentioned the parallels. There are so many parallels between dogs and humans, specifically less so with cats. But the foundational aspect of nutrition is, I think, species. You know, it's not species specific, where you want to have whole fresh foods and you want it to be as close to source as possible, right? But I take a lot of the same supplements my dog does.
Johnna Devereaux 11:32
it's like yeah, I'll just buy the bottles and it's like these are for you and these are for me, and that's you know what I mean. Like I feed my animals with the same way that I eat, if that makes sense.
Dr. Judy Morgan 11:44
Absolutely, I. You know, we want to, and it's so funny because one of the foods that that my dogs eat very often is AllProvide. They get their beef from Demcota Farms, and you know, Dennis has always said, "Oh, we get our beef from Demcota. I'm like, "Yeah, we're we were at the local grill store the other day, and I look in their freezer at their you know big briskets and all these because my husband loves doing all that stuff. And I look in and I'm like, "Their brisket is from Demcota Farms. Then I was talking to somebody else, and oh, the new butcher that's going to be in town, and he goes. We source our beef from Demcota Farms, and I'm like, Dagon it. Dennis has been sourcing from this, you know, restaurant level, really high end beef farm for our dogs and cats. and you know, it did it didn't mean anything to me until all of a sudden everybody's talking about Demcota Farms, and I'm like, son of a gun!
Johnna Devereaux 12:42
And I-that's the whole point of what I was saying of taking one step, right? Because the first, and you have taken miles and miles and marathons of steps, and you're still kind of understanding nutrition from a different depth. I mean, I let us all continue to be students, right, and continue to learn, but that depth of understanding, and I, you know, I don't ever want to be exclusive of people. I want to be inclusive ever of and meet people where they're at. And so, for some, if you have no idea what we're talking about, you know, it's it's just doing a little bit of research and understanding how the animals are treated and why that makes such a difference. The animals that we are then, you know, that when they're treated better and they're slaughtered differently, it's reducing cortisol levels, right? It's it's changing the meat that we are then eating, and that is going to interact on a cellular level for our pets as well as us in a completely different way.
Dr. Judy Morgan 13:41
Well, and we we know like the confinement raised animals, whether it's beef or poultry, they keep moving the the standards for everything. So for many years, Exalt has been allowed to be used on poultry in Europe. That is an isoxazoline. It's the same drug that is in Bravecto, and so this is a neurotoxin, and they are feeding it to chickens to get rid of poultry mites because the mites cause a lot of itching and weight loss, and you know decreased production in the chickens, and they just okayed that here in the U.S. as well, and I think it only has like a 10 or 12 day holding period for the meat, and there's no holding period for the eggs. So there's isoxazolines being fed to the chickens. We know that that lasts in the canine body for at least 90 days. It really stays there for a lot longer, but it's labeled for 90 day use, and yet the chickens we can eat them within 10 to 12 days after they're given that product. It's in the the metabolites are in the meat. We're eating that. How is that affecting us? And so, you know, I look at. And and then the other thing is how that poultry is washed to get into the grocery stores and the chemicals that are used on it and the preservatives and things that it's injected with, and there's a lot of water weight in that meat that you're buying at the grocery store, so you're you're paying this high price, but a lot of that is water. And then when we started processing our own meat chickens, you taste the difference, you see the difference. It's it's sort of like eating something totally different. It doesn't taste the same. The texture is different. It's it's a whole new world,
Johnna Devereaux 15:41
it is, and I think if you kind of, which I didn't even know that they've just allowed that now in in in the U.S. which is quite scary because for our pets and ourselves, like it's just increasing the systemic load, right? Which is just really putting more burden on the gut liver axis, and you know just how that has that downstream cascade on inflammation, and then everything else that comes from it. I think, and I don't know the answer to this question, but I think we need to figure out a way as society that we can become more informed consumers, where we're not being saturated with the excess BS right. Like there's so much information out there that people are oversaturated, and they're oversaturated with things that don't necessarily make the most impact, And so I guess that's what you're doing, right? That's why you do your podcast and other things.
Dr. Judy Morgan 16:42
But it's hard. Yeah, so and and I'm reminded of this every time I fly across the country, because when I look down from the airplane, and you know, especially in in the western part of the U.S. like literally, you can be flying for 20 minutes and not see civilization, and then all of a sudden you'll see a little pocket of five or six houses, and you see the roads leading away from those houses, and you realize that even to get if these people aren't raising all their own food, even to get to a grocery store, which in their case might be a Walmart or a Dollar store, that's their only source of grocery shopping, and they have to drive 50 miles each way to get to that, and that is a food desert. Yes, there are just and you know people that live in the cities. Your options are so limited. It's like okay, well we've got you know one grocery store in a 10 block radius, and you're you're beholden to what they have at that grocery store, which probably is going to be a lot of processed food.
Johnna Devereaux 17:49
Well, we were. I think things have changed, and you know, not to say not to give out brands here, but like Misfits changed that as far as availability for organic foods. I mean, that's that whole idea of the the the it's literally a misfit, right? That it's not perfectly graded for grocery stores, but it's still perfectly healthy food that is completely organic that is going to be delivered to your doorstep. Yeah, and now you have all of these regenerative farms that you know, if you order enough, if you have a freezer, and I, you know, some of like $150, which really isn't that expensive when you think about meat and cost and how long it can last. You that they'll ship it right to your door. So, I mean, we are blessed that in 2025 we have more options available to us now. But yes, I do understand that it there are some of us that are that take things for granted as far as what's available? That there are food deserts out there, and that's the same thing, you know, for for our pets too, right? That it's all about making small changes. And you know, I talked to someone the other day that you know actually both about their for their dog health and their personal health, and just having access to herbs. And I said, if you have a window, that's all you need.
Johnna Devereaux 19:02
Right. You need a window for a sill, and we can plant seeds, and we can bring in some freshness. And she was like, "Oh, I hadn't thought about that. And it's like, but sometimes it's just those baby steps. That we need to open our eyes because we we don't see what we're missing. Right.
Dr. Judy Morgan 19:18
Exactly. And there's so much out there that we can do, and we can talk about some of those steps and some of the things I've done at my house. We need to take a break. When we come back, we're going to continue this conversation, which is pretty darn amazing.
PRODUCT SPOTLIGHT #1
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PRODUCT SPOTLIGHT #2
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Dr. Judy Morgan
Welcome back to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. My guest Johnna Devereaux and I are having a conversation about kind of the state of the food world, and so we were just starting to talk about some things that can be done at home. And I I love the look if you if you have a windowsill if you have a window, you can plant herbs. So for a long time at our grocery store, we've been able to get instead of just buying fresh herbs, you can buy the little herb plants, and they you know comes in a little tiny pot. And so we use basil every single day. So I kept buying these little pots of basil, and sometimes I'd get a sage and a dill and whatever else they had, and sit them on my windowsill. And my kitchen window happens to be the absolute perfect place where they just thrive unbelievably. Well, then I I got this great idea that I was going to buy a hydroponic garden system, so I bought this hydroponic garden system and set it up in our kitchen, and it was like a whole wall thing. And the the first round of produce, we had cherry tomatoes and little peppers and all these different herbs, and it was beautiful. And as those plants, I mean, some of those plants got huge, and they they really just kind of outgrew their space. It's like, all right, time to replace them. And then as I put in replacement pods, everything started to be moldy, and nothing would grow, and the entire system went horribly. And I was like, okay, well that was great for one grow system, and you know it was great for for one round of pods, and then it just went south. So we took it apart, and I said, okay, I'm gonna like I really liked having the kitchen herbs. So then, I bought a system.
Dr Judy Morgan 23:43
I bought it off Amazon, just a system of shelves, and every shelf has the grow lights on it, and it's like three or four shelves high. Got all these pots and planted all these herbs, and I planted lettuce, and so it's like, look, I have a kitchen garden inside my house, and it's been amazing, and I've been able to replant quite a few times, but what's really interesting is that I have all these herbs growing. We have very short dogs; they're little 10-pound spaniels. Anything that's on the bottom two shelves, they can reach, and it is amazing. I'll turn around and say, "Oh my gosh, they're over there self-selecting the herbs. and they're having a great time, and it's really fun. And then I have tons of herbs planted outside in pots and raised beds, and one dog jumps up in the beds to find what he wants. Everybody else sniffs around the the pots down below, and it's fun to watch them. And it's like gonna go sniff the dill, gonna go sniff the lemon balm, gonna go sniff the curry, and you know they they they kind of root through everything, and then they choose the one that they want, and they go back to that, and they'll just start noshing on it. The other day, my mom calls from the living room and says, "Gabby's in here eating all of whatever that plant is. Oh, she was having a good time with the Parsley, and I'm like, guess we need parsley today.
Johnna Devereaux 25:03
That's I love zoo pharmacognosy. I had a client that their dog has brain cancer, and so we were talking about the importance of using lymphatics. And she she called me one day, and she goes, "Oh my God, she's eating violets. What do we do? What do we do? I'm like, well, violets are lymphatic. I'm like, so she's kind of telling you that you need to do what I'm saying.
Johnna Devereaux 25:28
I mean, it's it's brilliant. I was gonna ask if you had cats if they were jumping up there and self selecting as well because we knew that was gonna happen.
Dr. judy Morgan 25:35
So we have two indoor cats, and they actually one of them was coming out at night and traipsing through, I could tell because there was dirt everywhere. She was traipsing through the plants every night. Our seven outdoor cats live in our raised beds, so they took over the greenhouse. And when we built all the raised beds, I kind of got mad at them in the beginning because they would get in there and they would lay on a plant like one of my pepper plants is growing sideways because when it was young they laid on it and and now it grows that way, and I was kind of mad at them because they were like trampling on things and making my plants grow funny, but then I realized as the season was going on, I'm like, you know what? There's no birds bothering our tomatoes or anything in the gut, like I don't have pests, and like even the bug type pests really weren't there. And it's because I have cats sleeping, and they were, you know, it's nice and shady under there. So for them, it's like I'm laying on this cool soil under the shade of all these plants because I plant everything very thick, and but the cats were actually performing a function for the garden as well, so I kind of stopped getting mad at them. You know, now we're we're planting onions and garlic for the fall, so we'll see how that goes with the cats. So far, some of my bunching onions are laying on their sides, and I'm like, whatever. And they, I mean, they're not chewing on the plants. They, I will see them. I planted a big bed of catnip for them in a different garden bed, and I looked out the bedroom window one day, and I've got three cats rolling around in catnip, like we're just having a party out here. And and I love that. I love seeing that. Like I wish I could turn my chickens loose in my garden, but we have too many predators, so I can't turn the chickens loose. But when I'm cleaning out the garden, if I have some leaves that are getting a little bit of mildew or something on them, and I want to trim off the leaves, we feed those to the goats.
Johnna Devereaux 27:33
so you have your own little regenerative farm happening right now.
Dr. Judy Morgan 27:36
Yes, and now we have chicken tractors out in our field, and it we move them every day, and it is so interesting to see how those chickens are regenerating the soil because our farm was an old hay farm, and it hadn't been used, so it had a lot of chemicals split on it over the years. They had the same crop year after year after year. It got disced up like all the things that you're not supposed to do for regenerative, and then it laid fallow for four or five years and wasn't worked at all before we bought it. So we literally bought 23 acres of weeds.
Johnna Devereaux 28:11
Well, those weeds were doing a great job, though, right? Up taking,
Dr. Judy Morgan 28:14
yeah, through the those chemicals. It was just bad. And now, between the animals walking on it and turning it up, the manure that's being spread across the fields, and now with the chicken tractors on it, it is like you move the tractor, and what's left behind is these kind of areas in the soil where they've literally Dug it up. They've eaten the grubs and things out of there, and you move move the tractor, and it leaves behind the poop and where they've you know roughed up the soil. It's it's so cool, and we we just bought cows, and so we're looking out in the cow field the other day. We fenced off a new area for them, and my husband says, "What is this new stuff growing in the field? It's sort of a broadleaf, and then there's actually a few corn stalks that have come up, and they're coming up in the areas where there's a cow patty that had grains in it, and so the cows are now replanting the field with something that wasn't there before,
Johnna Devereaux 29:22
that's amazing.
Dr. Judy Morgan 29:23
It is so cool. Yeah, it is so cool. So I mean, my wish would be that we could all go back to you know the 1930s and 40s where everybody has their own you know, was it during World War One or World War Two where everybody had their victory gardens? I'm not a history person. No, no, I'm not history. You know, it was to to help to to feed the families. It was everybody planted their own garden and people shared their produce.
Johnna Devereaux 29:50
Well and think about it. That's when we were all quote at our healthiest. Yeah, humans and pets alike. Yeah, right. It was right after the war when every when we had to kind of consolidate because of famine. And start canning, and you know how we went down the path with pet food into this ultra processed way that everything started going sideways.
Dr. Judy Morgan 30:08
Well, and then the cigarette industry went under, and they put all their chemist work making chemical additives for food.
Johnna Devereaux 30:15
You know, I was in Salem, Massachusetts. My friend had come to visit from San Diego, and she had never gone to Salem, and she was she wanted to see about the witch trials and whatnot. I'm like, let's just go drive there because I'm from New England, so it's about an hour away. And you know, I had always learned, you know, that we were always so sick, right? And people didn't live long lives back then. And so, you know, when you start thinking of the comment I just made about how we were healthier, there are probably people listening saying, "No, no, we're going to dispel that because they died sooner. I we went to one of the cemeteries because that's where you know all with all the the perceived witches were buried, and there were gravestones that had people living into their 80s and 90s. So without all these chemicals, right? And so it really is a way for us to, and we have chemicals all around us, right, everywhere. I was talking to someone the other day who is feeding raw food. They're doing all the right things. I'm like, yeah, I just don't understand why my dog is itching. I'm like, all right, let's go through the laundry list. Did you bring in a new carpet? Did you bring in a new couch? Like, did you change laundry detergents? Blah blah blah, and we exhausted the list. And I'm like, "Do you diffuse any oils or have any plugins? And she goes, "Well, occasionally. Okay, so can we stop that?
Johnna Devereaux 31:33
Four weeks later, I talk to her, and I'm like, "What's going on? Did you see any change? She's like, "Oh yeah, it's all stopped. I'm like, hmmm
Dr. Judy Morgan 31:40
"Yeah. I mean sometimes it's the little things that we can't see the forest for the trees. You know, it's just like, oh, I've been doing that forever. I had a case with a very allergic dog, and they did the allergy testing. We made a beautiful diet for the dog, and it was better, but it was still really bad, just itching, itching, itching. And so, you know, on about visit number six, I'm getting really frustrated. She's getting really frustrated, and this dog stunk, and she had a lot of big dogs in her house. And I said, "Do you have any other dogs with skin problems, ear problems in your house? Oh yeah, I've got a few. And I'm like, "Do they all have this bad smell? Yeah, they all smell. And I'm like, "So what do you use in your house to make it smell better? Right. And you know, do you have carpet? Yes, I have carpet. And she was using a carpet deodorizer perfumed powder, and I said, "Okay, well now you've got to go get a steam cleaner. Don't use any chemicals. Steam clean all your carpets. Stop using the powder, and let's see what happens. And within two weeks, the dog was beautiful. Didn't have any more problems, and so it took me six weeks to get frustrated enough to actually ask the right questions. So sometimes there's something in the environment that we're not even thinking about. Like it's just been it's been that way for so long that I've been using it that it doesn't even dawn on me that that's a problem.
Johnna Devereaux 32:53
Oh, absolutely. And the laundry list has grown as to the questions we now need to ask to try to drill that down, I mean, we start off asking about nutrition, right, and the dietary aspects, and you know, the treats and the food and the the this and the that, but it goes so far beyond that. You know, we start talking about the environmental toxins. Then you're looking at the water source. Then you're looking at you know, are there any phthalates around? What what are your dogs chewing on? Are they chewing on plastic? Right? What are they eating their food on? Like it can become this rabbit hole. but it is the most amazing turn when you identify, and it may be one, it may be layered up. But when you can make those changes, and then better health is the result. I mean, what a gift.
Dr. Judy Morgan 33:40
And if your your dog is showing itching from that plug-in diffuser, what is it doing to you? Like, I know for me, I wouldn't be able to breathe. Like my, so I'm a I'm a wood personality. I'll throw in my TCVM because it seems to sneak in everywhere. I'm a wood personality, and what chops down the tree, the metal ax, and metal is your respiratory system. It's also your large intestine. But my metal element is weak because my wood has been so strong my entire life. I'm one. I'm an angry little person, and so my wood has been so strong my entire life that that poor metal ax has been trying so hard to chop that down. Like, could you please just get it under control? So, what's my weak spot? My weak spot is my lungs. It has been my weak spot since high school. I missed an entire marching band season with bronchitis. I couldn't breathe, and that was freshman year of high school. So that's how long my metal element has been struggling to keep up with that wood personality, and so and I didn't figure out that this is why I have all these issues until after I studied Chinese medicine. So I've only you know even been cognizant of the fact that gee maybe I need to strengthen this for the past few years of. Really trying to work on like, yeah, I really need to eat these things that are going to support that.
Johnna Devereaux
Uh huh. And I do immediately think about not that I want to like give you advice, but I'm going to just tell you right now. Like I think about the mucosal lining that's shared in both the lungs and the intestines and the gut lung axis, and so there's definitely you know adding some emulsions like Almas rubra or althea officinalis would be something maybe helpful.
Dr. Judy Morgan
There you go. Well, I'm just I have to say our diet has changed significantly since we've been able to grow our own organic vegetables. Now that we're drinking raw milk every day, we're processing our own meats, and then the meats that we don't grow, we are sourcing from regenerative farms with happy animals. It makes a huge difference.
Johnna Devereaux 35:52
Yeah, and I, 100% am there with you. I've made very though I don't, I don't have a farm. Like it's a dream.
Dr. Judy Morgan 35:59
I wish everybody could.
Johnna Devereaux 36:00
I, I, it's a dream. I mean, I have like 10 acres, but I just no, I know, right? Yeah. So
Dr. Judy Morgan 36:06
Our raised beds, there's seven of them, and they're about four feet, three and a half feet wide, and 16 feet long. So it's not a lot, a lot of space. It literally is this little tiny area of our yard, and we're actually going to put in seven more in the spring. I, because we put in good soil, we tried just having a garden in on the farmland, and the soil is so bad. And so then we brought in fresh soil that was supposed to be good soil, put 100 plants out there, and within a week they were all dead. I said, "I don't know what was in that soil, but it just killed all these plants. So clearly, it had something not good in it. So when we did the raised beds, we brought in really good garden soil, and then we put in worms and we put in soil probiotics. What those little beds produced blew my mind. Like we could not keep up with the amount that it was. But every day I had to go buy new garden baskets because my baskets weren't big enough. And every day we'd bring in all this stuff, and then I'd sit there and go, "Oh my gosh, I have to process all of this. Yeah. So it did. It it added about an extra hour to every day, but there was never a day that I was like, "Ugh, I have to do this. Every day was like, "This is so cool. that I get to do this, and I get to feed my family and friends, and I get to stock my freezer for the winter. And so the only vegetables that my husband is allowed to buy at the grocery store because he's the shopper and the cooker, the only thing that he's allowed to buy are the things that I failed miserably at growing, broccoli. Just the the bugs had a had a ball
Johnna Devereaux 37:57
I also have a hard time with Brussels sprouts.
Dr. Judy Morgan 38:00
Yeah the cruciferous veggies like the bugs, I whatever bugs we have, they just those poor plants never never got anywhere because the bugs just ate their leaves right at the beginning, and I don't use any chemicals, so it's like if I can't vacuum them off or pick them off, you know, I can't keep up. So he's allowed, and we don't grow asparagus. That takes a few years. Yeah. So the the few things that we can't grow, I'm like, okay, you can buy organic veggies of that. Everything else, I'm like, just go get something out of the freezer. So it it is very cool. Let's talk a little bit about we. This is what we were going to talk about, and we're way over everywhere. Let's talk about gut health. You know all of this. If we were able, what I have found for us is now that we are eating everything very clean, grinding our own organic wheat for flour. You know, growing our organic veggies, growing our own meats, having our own organic eggs. It totally changes your gut health. Yes. Which, when you change your gut health, you change Everything overall health
Johnna Devereaux 39:04
Literally everything. The gut is connected to every organ in the body in a bidirectional way.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Yeah, which is why it's so frustrating. I get it for people who have animals or themselves. Interestingly, we ended up hiring a functional medicine doctor from for my husband and I, and when we hired him, I was going through a lot of stress. It was during one of the big pet food debacles, and a lot of people I remember calling me names, and my gut health was awful. So we both did all this gut health testing. Mine all came back absolutely fine. I thought he was, you know, I was going to have all these sensitivities and allergies. Mine came back fine, but my cortisol was through the roof, and he was like, "Yeah, you just need to calm that down. So you know, we worked on that. My husband came back with alpha gal, so all of a sudden the the meatasaurus is not allowed to eat red meat. He came back with gluten intolerance.. He came back with a shellfish allergy, like all these things, and it was like, oh my gosh! Like I knew his gut health wasn't good, but when we found out all of that, all of a sudden it was like, well, no, we have to totally change the way that we eat. So we did, but the way we changed it at the time was very different from how we're eating now, and this is really only over a couple of year period. And yes, we made his gut health better, and he actually used acupuncture to cure the alpha gal, which was amazing. But now that we eat all this fresh, organic, you know, humanely raised, there's no gut problems,
Johnna Devereaux 40:39
and he can probably eat some of those.
Dr. Judy Morgan 40:42
He can eat everything, so he doesn't have a gluten intolerance. If I'm making freshly ground organic flour to use in our products, he can eat meats now, and a lot of it just had to do with moving away from anything processed, moving away from the sugar, moving away from things that are treated with chemicals. So we're going to talk a little bit more about gut health. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, let's talk some more about gut health.
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Dr. Judy Morgan
Welcome back to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. So Johnna Devereaux and I have been talking about our food supply, things that we can do a little bit differently, and so for this last segment, I want to focus in a little bit more on gut health. And so we have so many animals that have just struggled for a long time, and people do all kinds of testing, and whether it's a saliva test or a blood test, and it comes back. Well he's got sensitivities to you know this very long list of things, and I get emails from people saying, "Well, what do I feed my dog if he can't eat any protein? Well, not being able to eat any protein is a death sentence because you, you know, and it's not just that protein is in meat; protein is in a lot of our grains. That protein is found in legumes, a lot of different places. So we have to be able to have protein; otherwise, we can't make amino acids. We can't. We die,
Johnna Devereaux 44:27
right? Our bodies and our dogs' bodies are pretty much almost all protein. If you really think about it, except for the the cell membranes, right, which is the phospholipids. But
Dr Judy Morgan 44:35
yeah, so protein is important. We need protein, but there are some proteins that tend to be highest on the list of offenders, which are
Johnna Devereaux 44:45
well, I mean, chicken and beef are going to be the highest on the list. You know, when I see a dog, because it's usually dogs that are getting the IgG food sensitivity test, and they have a laundry list of sensitivities, the first thing I think of is that they have intestinal, you know. Increase intestinal permeability. That there is no way in the in God's green earth that these animals are sensitive to everything under the sun. Yeah, it's just not happening. And so it's really about you know at the moment we remove a lot of things, and there's an approach they call it the 5r approach, where you're basically you know we're just taking the holistic functional approach. We're not putting a bandaid on something and saying, "Well, what can I feed? It's well, let's step back, let's take a look at what's going on, and let's go through the process of helping your dog's body heal at the root cause, which is the gut. Right, that's where it all stems from. So yes, you remove certain things. You know, common offenders are going to be the beef, the chicken, the wheat, the corn, the soy. You're going to remove. You know, thinking about medicines, certain medicines that are contributing. You know, there are certain non-selective NSAIDs that are going to interrupt the COX one enzyme, which is going to further compromise the gut lining. You know, you have people who I love. They want to give their dogs blueberries, right? Because there's so many valuable benefits to giving blueberries, but they're not giving organic blueberries. So there's glyphosate residue. So how is that impacting the gut? You know, there's just ultra processed kibble, right? Like all of these things that we kind of want to step back and remove first, and so you know, one of the things that we always want to be cautious about is creating any type of nutritional deficiency. But in the short term, which is really what you're doing in some of these the remove phase, you can make it work. You can you can get by, but that's of a five-step program. That's the first step is removing all of those potential triggers that are just exacerbating the problem.
Dr. Judy Morgan 46:52
and then what would you start adding in?
Johnna Devereaux
Well, so the first thing that I add in would be replacing digestive enzymes because when you're having, you know, intestinal inflammation, it's going to interrupt cell function. It's going to impair potentially digestive enzymes. So using plant-based digestive enzymes are really going to help with nutrient absorption and assimilation. At the same point in time, I'm a really big fan, especially in older dogs or dogs that have, you know low quantity of stomach acid. Those that have GERD of using betaine HCL to help really kind of further help with the digestion of the food. And so you replace with those two things, and then we think about re inoculating with probiotics. Most people probiotics, it's like the craze, right? Oh, I take my probiotics, or I started giving my dogs probiotics, but I haven't seen a difference. Well, just because you're giving probiotics, are you giving them long enough? Are you giving them through, you know, in a diverse way where you're rotating them? Because we now know that the probiotics that we're taking in are transient, right? They don't, they don't stay there. But we also now have studies that show that when we're taking these otherwise transient bacterial strains per se, that they are allowing the commensal strains to increase in quantity. So there is value in probiotics when you do it right. So we incorporate probiotics in. You know, if you have a dog with SIBO or Candida, we're going to do that totally different, right? Which is that whole idea of there is no one size fits all approach for every animal out there. You really do, which I know you preach this from the from the mountaintops. You have to look at the individual in front of you. But a great probiotic to start off with is always going to be Saccharomyces boulardii, right? It doesn't colonize in the gut. It doesn't allow for a pathogenic bacteria to colonize. It's good for diarrhea. It's good for dogs that have had major antibiotic use. It's going to be good for changing the diet, which is basically what we're going to be doing. And it also has a barrier, gut barrier protection. So there's a systematic way, right, of of doing all of this, but I I need to go back and say we also need to remove environmental toxins. Right, we also need to think about stress as a physiological toxin. that is going to impact gut motility. That's going to impact the microbial.
Dr. Judy Morgan 49:17
I can just tell you when my cortisol was through the roof, my guts were the biggest mess, and I really thought I had something seriously wrong. It's like, nope, that's just your cortisol.
Johnna Devereaux 49:27
And if you think about cortisol dysregulation, what which happens from chronic stress in our animals, we have more dogs with Cushing's disease now than we have ever had.
And so people looking at like, well, my dog doesn't have stress. I, you know and they and they tell me the laundry list of how much they you know the treats and the love and all of that. Well, they're energy beings, so their stress is if you're not allowing them to be a dog,
Johnna Devereaux 49:51
right. If you don't let them go outside and sniff, don't let them walk. You know, a lot of people with the small dogs, oh, they're out in the carriers. That's. Not worried, right? Right. They need to have the sniffari in the morning, and then have a more moderate intensity walk in the afternoon, where they're actually moving their bodies. You know, if you don't have a dog that moves a lot, and then you put them into like an agility competition, that's going to be too high intensity. That's going to create more stress, right? So it's all about just letting them be dogs, bringing that stress level down. Thinking when you walk into your house, if you've had a bad day, when your dog, because every dog out there is excited to see their owner, right, their parent when they come through the door, like let that energy envelop you and leave your crap at the door because your dog is feeling that and absorbing that, and they're trying to help you through that, which is adding to their stress load.
Dr. Judy Morgan 50:45
Yeah, yeah. You know, something you said a couple minutes ago is that you actually are adding like the beating hydrochloride. Yeah. One of the things that I see so often in traditional medicine is, oh, my dog has reflux or my you know they've got this excess tummy noise going on, and the first thing that we want to do is put them on antacids. so they get put on antacids and then they're not. I mean, it's there for a reason. We have that acid to digest the food. Yeah, and so now we're taking that away, and then they're not digesting their food correctly. So you're actually approaching it from the opposite and saying, "No, we need more of that acid to be able to digest the food correctly. And I 100% agree. I I did a a YouTube video on the overuse of the PPIs and then the rebound effect that we get when they're taken away. I think they are so overused for people and for animals. And I mean, I have a history of stomach ulcers, and I spent a lot of years taking those, and it's not a good thing.
Johnna Devereaux 51:59
No, and for different reasons with human, you know, but it ends up causing oftentimes a B 12 issue.
Dr. Judy Morgan 52:04
It causes a lot of things. Well, yeah, not not to mention stomach cancer being one of them. So you really don't want to live on those, and you know you've got to figure out what the root cause is, right? That is causing that For humans and for pets. So you know, being that wood personality, that liver chi stagnation, and then it flares up, and yeah, let's figure that out for our pets. You know, there's a lot of wood personality animals out there too. Okay, so we're going to reinnoculate. So now we've gone through removal, replacement, re inoculating, repair. What are some of your goodies that you use for repairing the gut, because that's that's a huge thing. We if we don't repair, the problem just keeps going.
Johnna Devereaux 52:47
Right, it just it's going to perpetuate. So again, this depends on the animal in front of you. Like I love L-glutamine because it is the fuel for the enterocytes, which are the you know the cells in the the small intestines that's important for really nutrient absorption. Right. The thing with glutamine is, you know, as we know, the dog's body can naturally synthesize that. Under times of stress and illness, the body doesn't have the capacity to meet the demands of the body. So that is, and when we think about stress, dysbiosis, inflammation, that is also stress in the body. So that's what glutamine plays a role with. The thing about glutamine, you never use glutamine in a dog that has had cancer or has cancer. I'm sure you're familiar with Otto Warburg, who basically said that cancer cells, you know, are fueled but fueled by glucose. But now Thomas Safrid in the human space is doing this amazing amount of work, and so I take from that that basically shows that cancer cells can now ferment, or he's identifying cancer cells ferment glutamine as fuel. So if you have a dog with cancer or a history of, you would never use glutamine in those dogs. We would look at N-acetylglucosamine. N-acetylglucosamine is a compound in the mucin, which is a primary component of the mucosal layer that protects the epithelial cells in our gut, and so that's going to help with regeneration, really, of the mucosal layer. Again, another asterisk is if you have a dog that has a seafood, or I should say, a shellfish allergy, you would want to skip that as a targeted supplement because oftentimes the N-acetylglucosamine is derived from crustaceans, omega threes, right? Always omega threes, but always omega threes from smaller fish that are not bioaccumulating, you know, heavy metals and toxins. Even more important in this specific scenario when you're trying to heal the gut, you have the botanicals that I just mentioned to you for your own gut, right? So slippery elm is almost rubra. Athea officinalis is marshmallow root. They're phenomenal demulcents that help to soothe and protect the intestinal lining. And so you know when you have irritation and healing happen. They're going to provide. I always tell people it's a bad analogy, but one that humans understand is think of like the Pepto Bismol commercial, right? The pink that comes down with lines, pink coating, yeah. Like that's essentially what the demulsin herbs are doing. It's just protecting and creating that lining. And then you know you have zinc carnosine when you have so many dogs that are on non-selective NSAIDs. It really does damage the the the gut because of the. I don't want to get too sciency, but the Cox1 enzyme that provides protection for mucosal linings, it the non-selective inhibit that enzyme. So now you're not getting that protective aspect of the gut. So zinc carnosine is going to offer those same properties, so it can be very useful.
Dr Judy Morgan 55:46
Great, and I'm a huge fan of bone broth.
Johnna Devereaux 55:48
Yeah, bone broth. Yeah, bone broth is great from a nutrition standpoint. You know, it's going to have the glycine and it's going to be really supportive. Obviously, pet safe, no onions, all of those good things. But yeah,
Dr. judy Morgan 55:59
Yeah madk your own. Agreed. And then we have to do things like just rebalance, right? So getting rid of that stress, getting them outside,
Johnna Devereaux 56:08
right? And this is for humans and pets alike. You can make all the changes in the world, but if you don't change your lifestyle, if you don't modify, modify, and make those modifications, then you are not getting the full benefits out of all that you're doing. So rebalancing, reducing that stress, giving them that time, you know, to work on puzzles like mental stimulation, the physical stimulation, you know, giving them access to filtered water, right? That isn't is. I mean, especially if you're in a municipality, I'm not a fan of fluoride for pets in any way, shape, or form. But yeah, just kind of taking a step back and looking around, and then you know continuing those modifications. So when you've changed your household cleaners, when you've taken out the scented plugins, like don't introduce them back in, please. Right? Like instead, go get a pot of boiling water and add like an orange slice or a lemon slice, and let that be what makes your house smell better.
Dr. Judy Morgan 57:05
I used to love, especially in the fall, and take all those fall spices, like you know the pumpkin pie spices, and just put them in a pan and simmer that on the stove, and the house smells so good. And it's like this is just natural. These these are natural herbs, natural flowers, and if if you if you want that you know you want your house to smell good, don't go buy toxic candles, don't buy toxic plugins, and you know it's I I look back on my journey before I was into holistic stuff, and I can't tell you how many candles and plugins and carpet sprays and things that I used in my home, and I'm like, oh my gosh, these poor animals, the poor people that were in the household. Because I just I like the smell, and I wanted everything to you know.
Johnna Devereaux 57:56
But how cool is it? Because this is how I feel personally. I can pinpoint the time in my life when everything changed, and that was because of my boy Diego, right? The love for my pet changed the trajectory of my life, and I live healthier and cleaner because of it. And so my pets do as well. And I'm sure you probably have a similar point
Dr. Judy Morgan 58:19
It's interesting when I look back on it. So my Doberman that we had prior to my kids being born developed granulomatous meningoencephalitis, and he was only a couple years old. And when I took him to the neurologist, he he he woke up blind one morning, and I went, "Well, that's weird. He could see last night, and when I took him to the neurologist, he said to me, and this was probably my third year in practice, and he said, "Oh, this is from the distemper vaccine. And I went, "Excuse me, what a vaccine can have a serious side effect like this? And the dog spent a year on high doses of steroids. Lost his hair, lost his head muscle. Just would literally stand there and pee would run out of him because he was an 80-pound dog on 80 milligrams of prednisone every day. And then he developed fungal infections, and it was just this journey of disaster. And he did end up recovering from all of that. But I was feeding highly processed kibble, you know, the stuff that we recommend in the veterinary world. Yeah, unfortunately, and I look back on that poor dog, and I'm like, you know, you came to teach me a lot of things, and at the time, I didn't realize what he came to teach me, but when I and I write wrote about him in my first book, and you know what I learned, I didn't know how to put it all together. I didn't know what any of it meant at the time, but all of the pets that I've had, all the animals that I've treated, have all. Come into my space to teach me something. Every even the animals I have now, every one of them is teaching me something, and I think that for all of us, even as owners, if you're not in the health field, that as an owner, your pet is there to teach you something, and you know you need to learn from it and try to figure that out. Don't get frustrated by it, and just say, you know. And a lot of times, the diseases that we're seeing in our pets are mirroring.
Johnna Devereaux
I was just gonna say that. I mean, seriously, be open to it because there have been so many people that your dogs and your cats have the same issue that you're dealing with. like it is. It's mind blowing how often that happens.
Dr. Judy Morgan
I was talking to somebody who's a communicator. I don't. I don't know what else to call her. Communicate with the other world, and she was trying to teach me how to communicate with our animals. And through that conversation, somehow I ended up X-raying my 21-year-old cat and found lung cancer. X-rayed my 17-year-old dog and found lung cancer. And she said, "Oh my gosh, you know our our animals take on things from the family. So I'm dealing with two pets who now have been diagnosed with lung cancer, and the communicator is like, you know, our pets do mirror what we have going on. You might want to check out everyone in the family.
Johnna Devereaux
And you just mentioned you also have lung issues.
Dr. Judy Morgan
I have lung issues, breathing issues. So yes, we all got our chest X-rays, and we were all fine. But it just sort of brought to light, like you know, our animals, and it's amazing. So many people, I would diagnose their animal with an allergy or with a certain cancer or a certain whatever, and the people would say, "Oh, my son or daughter or husband or wife, somebody in the family has that same issue. So we need to pay attention.
Johnna Devereaux
Yeah, and there was a study that was that came out. I don't know. I think it was a few years ago that shows that the humans share a very similar microbiome as their pets. So I mean, it all makes sense.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Yeah, yeah. So when they study the microbiome in a household, the animals and the people they're very similar. and it's because we're living in that same environment. We're sharing things back and forth, yeah. So a lot of times, if if we've you know if your pet has a lot of gut dysbiosis, you might want to look at what's going on in your own life and say, "Oh, am I having some issues as well?
Johnna Devereaux
And most people want to ignore that in their own life. No one wants to talk about poop. I gotta tell you, but I and it's funny because I'll tell people like, send me pictures of your dog's poop, and don't worry if you steal my phone, you'll want to give it back to me, right? But they they get all embarrassed. It's like, no, no, no. Like we need to think about all of this. And so, if you have gas, if you have bloating, like that's that's all that's your stuff. And your if your dog's having it, pretty good chances that you're having it as well. Just own it, own it, and deal with it,
Dr. Judy Morgan
and let's deal with it. Let's clean up the environment for everybody concerned. Oh man, we could talk about this for months, but there's so much that's going on. Where can people find more information, particularly if they want to do a consultation to straighten out their own guts and maybe their pets along the way?
Johnna Devereaux
Yep. So I'm working at WholehouseNutrition.com is where you're going to be able to find me, and you can also find me at FetchRI.com. That's where my store is, and then you can find me on social media at @Johnna Devereaux. Long name. I'm not going to spell it, but it'll be there.
Dr. Judy Morgan
We'll put all that in the show notes.
Johnna Devereaux
If I can just say one quick thing that's really important. Don't rush healing. Don't force healing. It will happen. Sometimes it's going to take eight to 12 weeks. Sometimes it can take a year or more. It depends on how long your your pet and you as a human are dealing with it. If we're talking about it, so just get on for the ride. Realize there's going to be some setbacks, but that at the end you're going to feel so much better, and your pet is going to feel so much better, and you will be so thankful that you committed to it and followed through.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Absolutely, yeah. Everybody wants that quick fix. This is not this is not a pill with a quick fix. No, this is take your time, get it right, clean up the environment, clean up the diet, and you will see results. It may not be quick, unfortunately,
Johnna Devereaux
but you'll live longer.
Dr. Judy Morgan
all of you will. Thank you very much, Johnna
Johnna Devereaux
Thank you.
OUTRO/DISCLAIMER
The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. You're encouraged to do your own research, and should not rely on this information as professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Dr Judy and her guests express their own views, experience and conclusions. Dr Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets neither endorses or opposes any particular view discussed here.
