Intro 0:00
Welcome to the naturally healthy pets podcast. Let's get to it.
Dr. Judy Morgan 0:05
Welcome back to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast, I'm really happy to have a good friend as my guest today. And that good friend is Susan Thixton. Susan is a pet food consumer advocate. And she is really one of only a handful of advocates in the US. And she is at the head of the charge leading this fight to hold the pet food industry accountable to existing food safety regulations. Susan is the author and co author of several books, the publisher of the website, TruthAboutPetFood.com, PetsumerReport.com, and Association for Truth in Pet Food. And I just want to put a little disclaimer out there that the information that we talk about on this podcast today is current as of the date of the episode, but things do change as we move through the pet food industry, although very slowly. That's what I've discovered in the past.
Dr. Judy Morgan 1:04
So Susan is one of the, I think she's probably the only consumer advocate, who has been to every AAFCO meeting in like the past, what, 12 years, 15 years.
Susan Thixton
2009 when I went to my first meeting. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Judy Morgan
So and I've been to quite a few of the AAFCO meetings. At the request of Susan, the first thing that's where I first met Susan, we had been kind of emailing and she said, why don't you come to a meeting? And I said, Okay, I didn't know anybody, didn't know Susan. And I showed up, there was a room of 500 regulators. And I kind of went, Oh, my gosh, this is very scary. And so I was texting Susan going, how do I find you?
Dr. Judy Morgan 1:50
But it was it was so eye opening to be at that meeting. And I knew nothing about it. So Susan can give us some some background info. But for me, that very first meeting, I went as a veterinarian, so I'm a pet parent advocate and an advocate for my patients and our pets. And anybody who knows me knows that I'm a strong proponent of raw feeding, fresh food feeding, gently cooked feeding, but using real food for our pets. And I'll never forget at that very first meeting, I said, Look, I'm just gonna sit on my hands. I'm not gonna say anything. I'm just a fly on the wall. And Susan's like, no, no, they have microphones up there. And if you have something that you want to say, or a comment that you want to make, go up and stand in line at the microphone and get your point across. And I was like, oh, no, oh, no way. Fly on the walls, Zip it. And literally the first person who did the keynote, I can't remember who it was, but did the keynote and said something that just made my blood boil, about how these dry kibbles filled with all these preservatives, and chemicals and horrible ingredients were so perfect for for the pets. And that that's what they are, and prescription diets and blah, blah, blah. And I just about lost my stuff.
Dr. Judy Morgan 3:19
I couldn't get to that microphone fast enough, I was so mad. And I remember standing at that microphone, just trembling, and trying not to cry. As I was saying, you don't see what comes in my practice every day. And you don't see these animals who are suffering, suffering with skin disease and allergies and poor coat and arthritis and all these chronic diseases. You don't see it, you can not tell me that what's going on here and what's being produced is appropriate, healthy and good for these animals. And I wish I could remember what he said. But man! I went back to my seat, and Susan was a good job, and I'm like, so much for being a fly on the wall.
Susan Thixton 4:07
It's hard to go up to that microphone and buck the system. But we have to, you know, I mean, in part, just by what you were saying, because it's so opposite to what you know. And but the other part is, is that they need somebody to give them this feedback we need. I wish they had, you know, practicing veterinarians, as part of working groups and so forth to give them feedback of what these vets are seeing in their offices on a daily basis.
Dr. Judy Morgan
exactly and I have to say I think I was the only practicing veterinarian that was ever at any of the meetings that I was at and it was just so frustrating. And as consumer advocates, we have been laughed at, we have been booed, we have been ridiculed. ,They just I at the last meeting that I think was the last one I attended, I went up to the microphone to talk about prescription diets and saying there's nothing prescription in these. Why do I have to write a prescription for rendered, poor quality feed ingredients that have no medicinal value? Why am I writing a prescription for this? And why am I charging my clients? Well, and I'm not but why are veterinarians charging their clients twice what that same food would be on a grocery store shelf? versus buying it in the veterinary office? And oh, my gosh, the laughter, the ridicule, it was just like, I didn't know what I was talking about, really? Yeah, this I don't use prescription diets. And I don't think that Well, I know, we don't need the prescription diets, that we could solve all the problems that we use prescription diets for using whole foods.
Susan Thixton 6:07
One time at a meeting. I was there, I think by myself, and I got to the session, there's all these different sessions. For those that don't know, it's different segments of AAFCO. And I got to that session, you know, a little late, so I had to sit in the back of the room. And there was just a couple chairs open, and a young woman moved her stuff and said, you can sit here. And whatever the discussion was, I went to the microphone and made my comment. And then when I came back and sat down, and I didn't know this woman sitting next to me, when I came back and sat down, she wept, she leaned over and went, why don't people like you? And I said, What do you mean? And and and she said, Well, when you got up, everybody all around here said kept, you know, we're saying she doesn't deserve to be here. She shouldn't be here. She shouldn't go to the microphone. So that's what we're all up against you as well. I mean, this is their attitude towards change, I guess and transparency. They they don't. They don't like it. Now this at this meeting, the new president, did AAFCO President did come up to me introducing himself, I knew who he was, but and promised me that things would be different under his watch. And that's exactly what I told him. That would be great. But you know, time will tell.
Dr. Judy Morgan
So for people that are new to who I am and who you are, can you just give us a quick explanation of what we're talking about. what AAFCO is and how AAFCO relates to FDA, and Department of Agriculture and how all the pieces go together.
Susan Thixton
AAFCO stands for the Association of American Feed Control Officials. They are an independent organization. It is not a government organization. It's an independent organization. A nonprofit that writes law. They literally write they term it model bills that are then adopted into state law, not federal law, but state law.
Susan Thixton 8:39
The members of AAFCO are primarily State Department of Agriculture representatives, who are charged with enforcing. FDA does attend all AAFCO meetings and they have an agreement it's called a Memorandum of Understanding agreement with AAFCO for AAFCO to write definitions of feed ingredients. Pet Food is considered a feed by regulatory authorities they call it as like chicken feed cattle feed horse that's right. Yeah, it is regulated the same way as all these other products that are termed feed that's a that's a sticking point for me is that the dog food and cat food is termed food. When the majority of them are not food they don't abide by food law. They don't contain food ingredients, they're feed, just like chicken feed and cow feed which is not called chicken food and cow food.
Dr. Judy Morgan 9:50
So give us a quick explanation between the difference between food and feed at least how we would like to...I mean, because feed definitely is not the same as food. Although FDA and AAFCO kind of refuse to make that distinction.
Susan Thixton 10:16
Yeah, they refuse big time I've tried in many different ways, I still have one one effort pending. Food is what we eat. And as example our meats our meats are regulated by the United States Department of Agriculture. And they they have to go through like animals are required to be slaughtered, a precise way, the processing has to happen. And in all these precise ways, in order to protect human health. vegetables, everything have to meet a particular legal standard to be food. Feed, does not have to meet those legal standards. there really are no very minimal legal standards for feed. AAFCO terms that it shall be suitable for use in animal feed. Well, just about anything is suitable for use in animal feed. One of the most crazy things is that they feed cattle, chicken poop,
Susan Thixton 11:24
and they feed chickens cow poop, they they literally those ingredients are defined by AAFCO they have a legal definition. And so feed can be just about anything feed is waste, what is left over from the processing of human food. So feed and food the differences as well are in manufacturing conditions. So for any food that contains more than 3% meat, that is USDA's jurisdiction. any food that contains less than 3% is is FDA so like a pizza with pepperoni on it. That's FDA's jurisdiction, but your TV dinner with a meatloaf in there. That's USDA's jurisdiction. when human food with more than 3% meat in it. USDA is on site at that manufacturing plant the entire time food is being processed USDA is there to assure that ingredients meet the legal standards manufacturing meets legal standards so forth. yes mistakes still happen there are still recalls in human food. but in feed even though it has more than 3% meat in it, there's no USDA person there to make sure everything abides by law.
Susan Thixton 13:05
feed manufacturing, one of the worst examples and this was from a Freedom of Information Act request that I got on a Mars pet care facility in Ohio I believe, and in the report it was an inspection report follow up to a recall the year previous. quote "millions of roaches in the food production area." millions of roaches and that there was no warning there was no recall, nothing that is accepted in feed production.
Dr. Judy Morgan 13:42
Well, it's just more protein. Wow. So I know I would one of these days like I just I want to go undercover and I want to go in like every time I drive by one of these big fee, pet feed production plants. I'm like, I just want to go ask for a tour. Of course they'd never let me in. I don't think they'd let anybody in, I just Ah man, I just want to be that undercover person and probably get shot.
Susan Thixton
And you probably would that's that's, no you're kind of joking but it That's very true. I've talked to a lot of the people who show a lot of people who have worked in these plants and it's awful. It's it's actually dangerous for them. It is production of in some of these plants. Is is very dangerous. Like the aflatoxin Midwestern Pet Food had that massive aflatoxin recall. So it was like it's 700 parts per million in the food. So and 50 is the max so it was way over in in the food. So imagine when the poor employees of that pet food plant unloaded that corn. and and think how high it was there. they're not diluted down on the pet food and they're breathing in these mycotoxins,
Susan Thixton 15:15
these companies, the the plants that the employees I've talked to, they are not allowed to wear a respiratory protection. Probably because it, it makes their OSHA their worker's comp go up. But they refused... one guy had two different doctors say you have to wear respiratory protection at work. And they said you wear it, you lose your job, they would not.
Dr. Judy Morgan
I would think you would need that not even for the mold just for the amount of dust. That unloading trucks full of whatever grains, not just corn, but unloading trucks of grains or pouring in the powder or supplement mixes with making a big dust cloud. I would think that in the production line, everybody would have respiratory protection just because of the amount of dust particles even if they're not toxic dust particles, but having toxic mold that you're breathing in. I mean, talk about liver failure in lung failure.
Susan Thixton
Well, I wrote FDA and said after that Midwestern recall because I was thinking because I know so many employees pet food manufacturing, and wrote FDA I said, you know, you're there, you're at the plant you tested you inspected. So why can't you just pick up the phone and make a phone call to sister federal agency, OSHA and say, Look, we found high levels of mycotoxins at this plant. Perhaps you should go test some employees to make sure that their bodies are not contaminated. And FDA refused to do that. It's not our job. Employees are not our job. That's what they told me. And how difficult would that have been? Just to give a heads up to a sister federal agency but the the employees just like our pets, the employees are not what's important. We just want to keep producing pet food.
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Dr. Judy Morgan 18:19
So let's talk a little bit more about who else attends these AAFCO meetings. It's not just regulators from the States and from FDA. There's also like I, it's the first few times I went because they would go around the room and everybody would introduce themselves and where they were from. And I would write as because you're not allowed to record I should just record anyway. But I'd write as fast as I could. And I would write each company and I didn't care about the people's names, but I would just you know make tick marks and so Mars would have 15 people there, Purina would have 15 people there, Hills would have 15 people there. And then we have PFI, which you can talk about who that is we have these organizations, then we have waste oil producers that are there. Why would they be there? We have renderers there, rendering associations there. Why would they be there?
Dr. Judy Morgan 19:15
Why What do all these people have to do with regulating pet food?
Susan Thixton
Well, they want their way so that they can make more money. And and what's awful and bias to me is these trade associations you mentioned PFI. PFI stands for Pet Food Institute.
Susan Thixton 19:38
PFI and the trade group AFIA, American Feed Industry Association. AFIA is probably no probably absolutely the most powerful trade organization in pet food, they lobby Congress they're very active in Congress. They're very powerful. PFI would be next.
Susan Thixton 20:07
So, at AAFCO meetings, there is advisors to committees, that are trade associations, fair enough. And you get to sit at the front of the room at a big table, and you get a little bit more of a voice. One student of the actual trade association sitting at the table. And people who work for the trade association, they actually allow Mars, to sit at the table, and Purina to sit at the table. Because they put their PFI hat on or AFIA hat on. So it's actually industry that is considered an advisor. And in some of the outside, they're called working groups.
Susan Thixton 21:01
They take votes and and you know, when there's 10 people, 9 of the people are regulatory, or when there's 10 people, 2 people are regulatory, 7 people are industry, and they're all PFI, or AFIA, who do work together. Purina and Mars actually work together, when they need to, at these meetings to get their, what they want, passed. And then there's me, you know, who's gonna win vote? And I've complained and said, You know, it's not fair to to do votes like this, because I'm the only consumer advocate in this group, as compared to some from industry in here. And I was told it's, it's AAFCO's party, we invite who we want to the party. So they're all there to get their ingredients passed. to get their, you know, regulations to delay disclosing carbohydrates on pet food labels, to delay all these label modifications that we've been waiting for and waiting for. You know, you've been at meetings when they've talked about label modifications. We're still waiting on it. So yeah, that's, that's their job is to work the system their way. And even if there was an equal amount of us, I still don't think they would, would, you know, make it equal, make it a level playing field. I'm doing a presentation Thursday, FDA is having another listening session, and it's on AAFCO ingredient approval process. And that's one of the things I'm asking them for is a level playing field, you know, consumers have have no idea. You know, all of a sudden, there's black soldier fly larvae in their dog's food, you know, maggots in their dog food. And how did this who did this? How did this get passed? So they need to level the playing field and make it more transparent. So whether they listen to me or not.
Dr. Judy Morgan 23:25
well, I think part of their job is to make things less transparent. For instance, when we all started saying, hey, you know, this prescription dog food is basically chicken feathers. It and it's $90 a bag, and it's made of chicken feathers. So they change the ingredient name. So now it's like hydrolyzed poultry, protein product, or something, and it doesn't say chicken feathers anymore. And at the last meeting, or sometime recently, they changed corn gluten meal to Corn Protein. So for those of us who don't want glutens in our food, it's protein now. So good luck figuring out what's in it. so much for transparency.
Susan Thixton
Those are the things that of why industry is there.
Dr. Judy Morgan 24:15
Yeah. And unfortunately, the smaller pet food companies that are doing a really good job using whole foods, real foods, do not have the same representation.
Susan Thixton
Well, they have 1, their one trade association. But they need to, they need to go to more meetings, you know, and they're afraid they're afraid if they go, there's going to be a target on their back if they go to the microphone, they don't want a target on their back. And I understand, but at the same time, they've got to be brave and stand up for what is right and you're just voicing an opinion. You can be respectful, we're you know, we feel strongly about what we believe in. And we state our opinions strongly. But we're always respectful at the mic. You know, we've we've never cussed them.
Dr. Judy Morgan 25:17
Oh, man, I can't believe it. We are out of time. So for those of you who want more information about what Susan does and what her organization does, it's TruthAboutPetFood.com. And Susan, as an advocate, kind of holds the industry feet to the fire. And she has something called The List and she puts it out every January. And she does a lot of research and puts out a list of the pet food companies that she would actually consider using their food for her own pets. The List is extensive, and small donation to get that list. You can get it anytime of the year it's at TruthAboutPetFood.com. I highly recommend getting the List. You will never regret it. It is amazing. It is only American foods at this time. She can't be in all countries all the time.
Dr. Judy Morgan 26:14
Susan, thank you so much for everything that you do. You are such a powerhouse. And we really respect and admire you for all the work that you've done.
Susan Thixton 26:25
right back atcha. Thank you.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Thanks for listening to another great Naturally Healthy Pets episode. Be sure to check out the show notes for some helpful links. And if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. We value your feedback and we'd love to hear from you on how we're doing. Visit DrJudyMorgan.com for healthy product recommendations, comprehensive courses, upcoming events and other fantastic resources. Until next time, keep giving your pet the vibrant life they deserve.
Disclaimer
The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Dr. Judy and her guests express their own views, experience and conclusions. Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets neither endorses or opposes any particular view discussed here.
