Dr. Judy Morgan 0:00
Welcome to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. Let's get to it! Welcome to today's show. We have three of us today. So we'll see how that works out. Hopefully, we won't be all screaming over each other. But it's already started out with the conversation beforehand being a lot of fun. So my guests today are Dr. Ian Billinghurst. And if you haven't heard of Dr. Billinghurst, what rock have you been hiding under? Because he has been in the Holistic Veterinary space for a very long time. We kind of call him the father of raw pet food. And the very first raw pet food I ever fed my dogs was Dr. Ian Billinghurst's, BARF diet when it was available here in the US, and his first book, Give Your Dog a Bone on biologically appropriate nutrition for dogs and cats is celebrating its 30th anniversary. I did the math. That's 1993. That's so awesome. You've been talking about this for? Are you tired of talking about it yet?
Dr. Ian Billinghurst
Well, I actually wrote the book, so I'd never have to talk about it again.
Dr. Judy Morgan 1:09
Yeah, how's that worked out for you?
Dr. Ian Billinghurst
A complete failure.
Dr. Judy Morgan 1:14
Well, we all have to fail at something. Congratulations. And my, my other guest today is Rob Ryan. And he's the Founder of Gussy's Gut, which you can find on our website. And he focuses his expertise in microbiome health, and whole food nutrition. And he and Dr. Billinghurst have kind of teamed up to talk a lot about fermentation and just food in general. And I think mostly we're going to be talking about dogs today. But so Rob, this goes, question number one goes to you.
Dr. Judy Morgan 1:52
What got you interested in fermented food for dogs?
Rob Ryan
Yeah. Well, it's the namesake of the company, my dog Gussy, he's actually he's got an Italian name, it's Gousto, which is Italian for zest for life. And, you know, quite literally, without being too silly about it, he lost his zest for life when he got into my trash can in the kitchen, and hadn't eaten for seven days. And then started stopped drinking last three days, we did sonogram, we did all kinds of stuff, couldn't find this thing that was causing all of this, all of these health issues, and eventually he pooped it out. And that was on the seventh day and a bunch of gut, I could just tell a huge gut disturbance followed. And because that was his first poop in seven days.
Rob Ryan 2:51
and it was a huge bottle cap, plastic bottle cap, it was slightly bent, he had bitten it before he swallowed it. And so I had a bunch of time on my hands. It was during the pandemic, and I was, you know, as all over Instagram, people were making sourdough and, and I thought, wait a second, I'm going to start fermenting for him, and just optimize this and see how it goes. So that led to a conversation with Dr. B. Dr. B and I, had known each other, grassroots 20, 23 years ago when I got my first dog who lived to 16. So he taught me he was introduced to me by Dr. Marty Goldstein. And he taught me exactly how to feed raw, very quickly, and adeptly. And that was the year 2000.
Dr. Judy Morgan 3:42
Cool. All right. And so Dr. Eve going over to you. Why did you join forces with Rob to help formulate the fermented super foods that turned out to be Gussy's Gut? Like, what made you say this is the guy?
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 3:57
because he was so insistent. It was a little bit more than that.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 4:07
He's a very persuasive man. He's a marketer. But it takes a lot to persuade me to do anything that I don't want to do. And you have to ask my mum, are you you would have had to ask me, mum. But anyway, that's another story. She's not with us anymore. But what he was proposing was something that I had not been able to fully incorporate into my evolutionary food program because of the lack of its availability. For example, I want to always wanted to put in the gut contents of cattle also like to incorporate a bit of poo somewhere, but you can't do that people find that repugnant, they find it off putting and although dogs eat all these things. We had to have something that would fill in those nutritional gaps. And I thought, Aha, this ultra smart Yankee salesman is onto something here.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 5:00
All right. I'll go I'll go with it. Let's see what happens. And so it's been a great ride. He's actually resurrected me in a way. he's dug me out of a sort of this grave, we're all I want to do was paint and have a good time. And now he's got me working.
Dr. Judy Morgan 5:20
I know. And holistic veterinarians are never allowed to retire, we just revamp ourselves into something else.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 5:31
But what it has done also, I have looked at the Internet, and I've looked at what the I'm going to call them for want of a better word these BARF gurus or real feeding gurus have made of the original proposition that I put out. Now my original proposition was absurdly simple. And if you look at my signature, it says nutrition, it's absurdly simple. And they had turned it into this complex program, where you need a spreadsheet and a computer to work out how to feed your dog. And I thought, Oh, my God. And I was probably almost ready to give up on that.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 6:06
Until this very smart man from America, young Rob there came to me and I thought, right, well, he's going to use me, and he's going to use me to help sell a product was going to be so beneficial to dogs, I'm going to use him to get my thoughts out there. Now, I perhaps didn't put it in those words to myself. But that was the train of thinking that went through my mind. This is my opportunity now, to get some truth out there about nutrition. And so here we are today.
Dr. Judy Morgan 6:37
You know, Gwen and I were having a discussion about this earlier today. And she said, You know, I, because I have this clowder of cats, because the stray cats showed up pregnant, and we had all these kittens born. And so now we have all these year old cats, because we really stink at giving away cats. So I've got all these cats and they live in the barn and they do their job. They they hunt mice, they hunt birds, they have moles, whatever. But they literally eat the entire thing. If they eat a bird, I might find two feathers. And so we were talking about all the foods that are on the market and how we really are missing so many parts and pieces that if we looked at what they would eat in the wild, they're eating the hair, they're eating the feathers, they're eating the brains, they're eating the eyes, they're eating the gut contents, they're eating everything. And you're right, it gets distilled down to you know, this percentage of muscle meat this percentage and like I'm guilty of that, too, because that's what people want to hear this percentage of of organ meat and this percentage of vegetables, and then it does become so complicated, because then we get you know, FDA and AFFCO and whoever, but everyone steps in and says you have to meet these standards. And yes, they're a joke. I agree. But if you're going to have something commercial on the market and not have the authorities come down on you, you have to toe the line. And that's another conversation anyway.
Dr. Judy Morgan 7:58
So real quick, you and we're going to put this up in post production with Dr. Ian's food pyramid. So I happen to have the pretty picture. But Dr. Ian has a couple of other food pyramids. And I want you to hold those up because I love them. And if we get copies, we're going to put these up too. I love the top of the pyramid is poo. And then we have the RMBs are the raw meaty bones. You had another one there too. Do you have your other one in front of you still?
Dr. Ian Billinghurst
Most definitely.
Dr. Judy Morgan
There we go. There we go. So the bottom is the biggest part. We got poo way down there like so. Let's talk about poo. Why is poo beneficial? And what is poo have to do with fermented foods?
Dr. Ian Billinghurst
Who you're directing this question to?
Dr. Judy Morgan
Oh, either one of you. Rob, do you want to talk about poo in fermented foods?
Rob Ryan
I think that's Dr. B's. That's Dr. B's. Good area. I'm happy to talk about it. But I do want to interject here and the last thing he said as a marketing person, I did save him from a really disastrous acronym. Because as everybody knows, he created BARF, bones and raw food diet or biologically appropriate raw feeding.
Rob Ryan 9:13
He wanted to add absurdly simple solution to the end. So it would have BARF fast. And I said absolutely not. Absolutely not. Okay, so...
Dr. Judy Morgan 9:26
I knew this was gonna be good. All right.
Dr. Judy Morgan 9:30
So Ian, I want you to tell us why poo is beneficial? Because I have a poo eater and everybody's all freaked out about it. And I'm like, Dude, you're eating that because you need something. He happens to be my dog who has had stomach ulcers in the past. He's had chronic anemia that I can't seem to get, don't know where it's coming from. And so he's my poo eater. And I'm like, well, you're you're giving yourself a fecal transplant from the healthy dogs in the House who don't have any issues.
Dr. Judy Morgan 9:57
So what why is poo so important?
Dr. Judy Morgan 10:00
And how does that relate to fermented foods?
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 10:04
How many hours do you have? All right? None of us do.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 10:15
anyway, years ago, owners of German Shepherds, particularly because they were a large breed, and they were wanting to feed these dogs on something that would slow their growth rate. So they didn't develop orthopedic bone problems like hip and elbow dysplasia would come to me and say, My dog is eating its own poo. It actually didn't say that. They might say, feces or droppings or something. But anyway, that the dogs are eating their own poo.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 10:42
And they said, it's disgusting. And why are they doing this? And I thought about it for about a millisecond and said, Well, you're feeding dry food. So what you're putting in at one end is a very poor nutrition and what you're going out the other end is actually valuable nutrition, so that they're smarter than you perhaps didn't say that. But I'll say it now, they're smarter than you. And they know that they should eat their own pool if they want to actually thrive and do well. And what's so great about poo? Well, let's think about it. Poo is actually, the dead bodies of bacteria and bacteria are living creatures, we actually come from bacteria, by the way we come from, anyway, I won't go into all that. But so they're living creatures. So what have they got, well, they got first class protein, they got all the essential fatty acids, they have. I guess they're a form of probiotic, because they come from the internal parts of a dog, perhaps
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 11:39
they've got prebiotics. So there's because a lot of the stuff they're feeding was based on some sort of fiber. They've got post biotics, because the bacteria feeding on them have actually produced good substances. So all this wonderful stuff was dropping out the back end, and being treated with great repugnance by the owner and tried to get rid of the dogs. This is I was going to swear then. this is really good stuff. So I realized way back then that this was part of the biologically appropriate raw food program. And I didn't really use those words, in my mind at that stage. It's just what this is what we should feed dogs, it's common sense,
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 12:23
substitutes for those things. So we can actually supplement with first class proteins, if you like in the form of eggs, or perhaps lean meat, whatever, it doesn't matter. Throw in some essential fatty acids throw in some form of probiotic. And this at this stage, it was like kefir or yogurt, that sort of thing. But then this is where Rob came in about 20 or 30 years later, whatever. But so it was, this is what poo has, it's a living food. And it has these enormous benefits. And it's part of what dogs are designed to eat, because they're scavengers. And the word scavenger is part is one of the principles associated with what I'm going to teach in this course that I'm doing, which will maybe Rob or talk about, or maybe you, I don't know, doesn't matter. It's coming up this course I'm teaching on the absolute simplicity of canine and feline, actually, Feline is even more simple. You actually spoke about it, you actually told them all they need to know. But
Dr. Judy Morgan
whole animal prey.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 13:26
Dogs are different. They are not actually all animal prey eaters. They're scavengers, so they need more bones than cats. And they anyway, I won't go into it now. But so because your question is, that's why poo is so important, because it contains many of the missing foods that are not available any other way, and particularly fermented food.
Dr. Judy Morgan 13:47
Pretty awesome. So for all of those people who keep asking the question, Why does my dog eat poo? There's a pretty good answer from Why does my dog eat poo? And maybe we shouldn't be so grossed out. And maybe we should say, hey, that's fine, you can do that. I'm not so thrilled that you want to come kiss me right afterwards. So you know, we'll avoid that. But you know, it really. And we do see if we think about it, rabbits have to eat their feces in order to get the B vitamins that are supplied by the first pass of the feces, like they would die if they didn't do that. So, you know, we have to look at, you know mother nature's actually kind of smart and we really, really try to muck it up as much as we can. We think that we're doing a good job, but we're really mucking it up. I can't believe we're halfway through we have to take a break. When we come back, we're going to talk about some of the benefits of fermented foods because there are so many.
Dr. Judy Morgan 14:41
And so we want to talk about how we can help our pets by giving those fermented foods we'll be right back.
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Dr. Judy Morgan 15:15
Welcome back. So we're going to talk about some of the pros and cons of fermented food, particularly, I'm sorry, benefits of fermented food, and I'm gonna throw this to Rob, because he's the one who said to Ian, hey, we got to do this. And apparently, he's a good marketer. So, Rob, what are benefits of fermented food? And why should we all think about feeding fermented foods to our dogs?
Rob Ryan
Yeah, well, so I've been a couple of things. I'm a really good fermenter, too, it turns out. I've been as interested in health and longevity and health span, as long as I have, basically, in my career. So, you know, to me marketing was how can we communicate something that people need, maybe don't really understand or it's too complicated for them understand. So how can we make it simpler? In this product, it's just simple. And thanks to freeze drying, we're able to create something that is basically like you gave it raw or wet in without any of the issues of freezing and transportation, expensive shipping costs. We're able to freeze dry it, turn into a powder and you just put it right on top of any dog food, kibble raw, cooked, whatever it is you do, you can add benefits to that. And so we have 19 super foods and they vary between super fruits and vegetables and herbs and we ferment them all the same for two weeks. And every ingredient that we use is on the label. And it really kind of comes down to the other two ingredients are Redmond's. We use Redmond's Real Salt. And that is a high mineral high value mined out of the mountains of Utah. When Utah was an ocean, it's mined right out of them. So it's super pure, it's not affected by microplastics, and all of that. We buy a lot of Redmond's. And we ferment that for two weeks. And then at the very end, we add a very little bit of cheese of organic cheese, for the dogs that are kind of like, you know,
Rob Ryan 17:35
because, you know, there are those dogs, the raw dogs and the whole, the real food dogs, they they go nuts for Gussy's Gut. but the kibble dogs, we need to entice them a little bit more. So we put a little bit of that in, but it's a very little bit. So we're talking antioxidants, we're talking enzymes, the fatty acids that we have are incredible. And we talk about that when you sign up for our newsletter, we tell you all about the value of the of what's in the product. But these 19 ingredients that Ian and I chose together, this wasn't what I made at my house. This is a super version of that. They work together and very synergistically, and they create over 180 nutrients that we know are in the formula. But I have some news, we are actually doing some pretty sophisticated testing pretty soon. So I what I'm told is we're going to uncover more than 180 nutrients, terpenes, polyphenols, phytochemicals, the things that you don't get from a multivitamin or multi mineral, Dr. Judy, the most common questions that we get the most common are should I replace my probiotic with Gussy's Gut? And the answer is no. If you need a probiotic, your vet has told you you need a probiotic, there's, you know, you have to remember, there's we're dealing with a range of ages and health conditions in dogs. So we don't know what your dog needs. But we are able to provide this whole food spectrum of nutrients in addition to probiotics. Now, if you're a healthy dog, and you just need general wellness, wellness, maintenance, yeah, you can just use Gussy's Gut. that be great for you. And we have probiotics, pre and post biotics, which is the triad, the, you know, the holy grail of, you know, gut health. It's, it's, it's those three.
Dr. Judy Morgan 19:28
And so you said it's a freeze dried product, so you do the fermentation, and then you freeze dry it. The freeze drying, does that have any effect on the probiotics? prebiotics, nutrient value that you're getting?
Rob Ryan
Yeah, no really, really good question. So no, and the reason is we do it a certain way. So you can, there's a huge. What most people don't know about freeze drying and they just think it's you're just freezing it and it's turning into a powder. That's actually not what happens. There's pressure involved. And there is heat involved, believe it or not, and so we do ours very carefully, very long. And under 70 degrees, I actually think we're under 60 degrees in in terms of temperature, so we're able to maintain its rawness and its nutrient value.
Dr. Judy Morgan 20:13
Okay, okay. Yeah, cuz that's always the question whenever we're freeze drying something like, are we changing things? And I don't think a lot of people understand how freeze drying works, but there's heat involved. But like you said, it's 60 or 70 degrees. So that's totally different than cooking something in your oven at 350 and dehydrating something, so we're doing it totally differently. Okay, so let's talk about any cons to feeding fermented food. And I think I'm going to throw this one over to Ian.
Dr. Judy Morgan 20:41
Because I do have people who say, Oh, I have a dog with allergies, or I have a dog with mast cell tumors. Can I use fermented food for them? Is it a good idea or a bad idea? So are there any cons to fermented foods? Are there scenarios where you would say, might not want to do that?
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 21:02
Hmm, a very difficult question in many ways, because it all depends on the dog that's involved. For the vast majority of dogs, absolutely no problem at all. And moreso, if it's in the context of a whole raw food diet, then really, I find virtually none whatsoever. However, if you overdo any fermented food to a great extreme, then of course, the bacteria and that could actually override the healthy bacteria in the gut, and decide if you're actually causing an imbalance. And it may in particularly in say an immune compromised dog cause a problem. So under those circumstances, I would suggest to whoever is going to use something like Gussy's Gut, that they start off very slowly with very tiny amounts and watch what happens. And then gradually add it in because that's the way the the gastrointestinal intestinal system works anyway, in a healthy way. small incremental changes of something like Gussy's Gut is the way to go. So that's my top tip. For anybody who feels I'm not sure whether this is the right thing to use. Try starting with tiny amounts, just a tiny sprinkle. Observe. So it's a very common sense approach. You just have to say, right, if this stuff is bad for my dog, then let's see what level is bad for them? Because let's face it, if you overdo water, if you overdo salt, if you over do anything to your dog, it's becomes toxic.
Dr. Judy Morgan 22:39
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst
So again, it's just use common sense.
Dr. Judy Morgan 22:44
And I, whoever wants to answer this one, one of the things that people talk about are histamines in fermented foods. Now, I've heard kind of both sides of the story on this one. Some people say absolutely, if you have a dog with a history and problem like a mast cell D granulating. Whatever, that fermented food should not be used because of the histamines that are present. And then I've talked to other nutritionists who say, kind of what Ian said in the right amount, they can be very beneficial and the histamines are not a problem.
Rob Ryan 23:20
Well, I can answer this from a, from a practical point of view, we do get this question. And so our response is, if you're in doubt, if you have a dog that is dealing with a health issue, then go to your vet and ask them or don't try it. Err on the side of caution. The last thing we want our product to do is affect adversely your dog's health. That's the last thing we want. So we, we also know that I've gotten dogs that have if you go to our reviews, they're all most of these are pictures and images. And they're verified customers of ours. By the way, our reviews, we don't filter out the bad reviews, nothing, we don't edit them nothing.
Rob Ryan 24:04
We have people that say my dog was allergic and now is just doing great. And then we have others that we've had, say, I bought a sample, my dog is just off the charts allergic and they didn't do well on Gussy's Gut and they discontinued it, we gave them a refund. So the answer is nobody really knows. I mean, you know these things, a lot of the things that we come in contact with these really, really good questions from these very educated pet guardians. They are so good, but we don't have the testing equipment or the or the ability to test for the things that we sometimes want to and I would love to say that, you know, well our product on a scale of one to 15 has a histamine level of this. But we don't have that really available yet that is anything I would, you know remotely trust and be able to tell people to use as a guide.
Dr. Judy Morgan 24:57
Yeah, and I think it's so individualized. every animal responds differently to everything we feed them. Anything we put in on or around them. So I think it's a it's a very individualized thing. And I like the try a little bit. And if it's worse you stop. If it's better you keep going.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 25:21
The level the histamine problem was really not so much the histamines but the ability of the gut to degrade the histamine. And this is very much a product of the dog's microbiome. So in many ways, a fecal transplant may be the answer. But again, I would say, if it was somebody I was consulting, and they really wanted to do this, I would say exactly what I said before tiny amounts of tiny, tiny, if there's a genuine absolute problem, then even that tiny amount will cause some reaction. Hopefully not a big reaction. But I've never actually seen it if it's so tiny. It's very unlikely to unless it was like, some child with a peanut allergy, where there was an absolute problem, but boy, I just don't see that anyway. That's just my other two bob's worth.
Dr. Judy Morgan 26:18
Okay, yeah, I mean, absolute. Food allergies in dogs are actually really rare. Not nearly as common as peanut allergies in children. So do you feel that you have a lot of nutrients in this particular product? But do you feel if so, some people make their own fermented veggies? If someone's making their own fermented veggies? Should they be rotating the different veggies that they're fermenting? I mean, I talk about rotation in diet a lot. But do you think that if they're, if they're making their own, should they be rotating those as well?
Rob Ryan 26:56
You're laughing, Ian, go ahead.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 27:00
Well, I'm watching you shake your head and I'm shaking. It's like we're in a positive way that we're both saying yes, yes, God. That's the whole key to health. The word variety, variety, variety, It is part of the principles of evolutionary nutrition part of what I teach. Yes. And so it's just common sense, isn't it? You don't feed yourself the same stuff. So it's seasonal, is local if you can, and, and of course, you're not trying to add any specific bacteria, you're using the bacteria or, or the micro organisms already present on the food, which is what Gussy's Gut we do at Gussy's Gut, we're using the native bacteria. And that is what the dog wants to talk about with his intestines. Because remember, the intestines are actually outside the body. So there's a conversation between the body and the contents, which is all the microbial the microbiome within so that that conversation occurs most beneficially when it's just the native bacteria, not just a single strain that we've put in to ferment the food, which is what you get in some other well, most commercial products produced on a gargantuan scale.
Dr. Judy Morgan 28:14
Yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned earlier, we could talk about this stuff forever. But we don't have much time. You mentioned earlier a course that you're putting together what is your course I'm a very curious.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 28:27
Well, it's a kindergarten course. And you don't need to go beyond it. Because once you learn the principles, which are the kindergarten of evolution, and nutrition, you are then set free because you know what to do. It's that simple. Everybody else wants to become a guru, where they are the only ones who have the answers. And it's all written in spreadsheets and whatever you want to recipes. What people need to know is that this is beyond simple nutrition is beyond simple. In fact, I was thinking about this this morning, when we were when I was a young person, I lived in a society, Australia, where what we did was, in fact, on a broad scale, if you had a dog or a cat, you fed them with butcher scraps and human food scraps.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 29:17
What you did, it was common sense. Now we live in a society is what we do is we feed them kibble, predominantly. So what was common sense back then, is not common sense anymore. So really, what I'm teaching is a common sense approach to nutrition. But it's not just what we did back then. It's also looking at from a very scientific perspective, because funny enough, I was trained in science, agricultural science and veterinary science along the way, and that what I've come to appreciate something that was actually taught to me was evolutionary nutrition, and one very specific teacher of mine. I've never met him his name was Dobzhansky. He said nothing in
biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution. So we just have to do what the dogs evolved, doing. And I teach that as well in this course, how that how a dog has evolved to require what it requires today. And there are just some simple words like scavenger, omnivore, Hunter, coprophagia, which means eating poo, all these simple concepts embodied in the course. And at the end of it, people walk away saying, Oh, my goodness, this is so simple. Why didn't I know that before? In fact, when I wrote Give Your Dog a Bone, I thought, why am I writing this book? It is so absurdly simple. Would anybody really want to read this? as it turned out, apparently, yes.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 30:50
in the course, and so much more. Because having been around now for who knows how long and how long, it's going to go on. So I've got to get this out there. I want people to know the simplicity of all of this. So that's, that's the course is kind of like kindergarten nutrition, which takes you to a point where you are way beyond the best PhD. In fact, if you have a PhD in veterinary nutrition, you are unteachable, and you cannot understand this stuff. It's beyond you.
Dr. Judy Morgan 31:23
Unfortunately, that is true. unfortunately, you know, it's sad. Well, I'm excited. I can't I can't wait to get the notification when this course comes out. We'll talk about that with you some more when it when it's available. I love everything that both of you are doing for our pets. Gussy's Gut is available on our website, DrJudyMorgan.com. It's also available at GussysGut.com. It's a great product, I recommend giving it a try. And I thank you both for the time that you were willing to spend speaking with me today, particularly with the time zone differences that we have to work around. Some of us work late and some of us get up really early in the morning. Thanks, Ian.
Dr. Judy Morgan 32:13
But, yes, but always, always a pleasure talking with you. Rob, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for pushing Dr. Ian to join you in your endeavor because you've come up with something great. Until next week. Thanks for listening.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 32:33
Thank you Doctor Judy.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Thanks for listening to another great Naturally Healthy Pets episode. Be sure to check out the show notes for some helpful links. And if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. We value your feedback and we'd love to hear from you on how we're doing. Visit DrJudyMorgan.com for healthy product recommendations, comprehensive courses, upcoming events and other fantastic resources. Until next time, keep giving your pet the vibrant life they deserve.
Disclaimer
The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Dr. Judy and her guests express their own views, experience and conclusions. Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets neither endorses or opposes any particular view discussed here.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
