Dr. Judy Morgan 0:00
Welcome to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. Let's get to it!
Dr. Judy Morgan 0:04
Hello and welcome to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. I'm Dr. Judy Morgan, your host and my guest today is Johnna Devereaux. Johnna is a clinical pet nutritionist and decades long herbalist. As the Chief Nutrition Officer for Bow Wow Labs and the Owner of Fetch RI, Johnna has helped 1000s of pets through diet, supplementation and lifestyle recommendations. Johnna was named a trailblazer in the pet industry, as well as a woman of influence in the pet industry. Her passion is to share her knowledge and provide pet parents with the tools they need to have the healthiest pets possible. Johnna, thanks for being my guest today.
Johnna Devereaux 0:47
Thank you for having me.
Dr. Judy Morgan
We always have good conversations. So today, we want to talk about how diversification can lead to vitality and longevity for your dog.
Dr. Judy Morgan 0:57
We're going to focus kind of on dogs, however, this exact same message applies to our kitty cats as well, because I think, especially for cats, they get so stuck in a rut of I'm eating this, and this only and I will not change and you cannot make me. So I think it's really critical. Our dogs are usually a little better about being willing to try new things. But I've got a couple kitty cats right now that they're so stuck in a rut, which is not good. So you say that diversity is the foundation to good health? Why are you so passionate about this topic?
Johnna Devereaux
Well, I mean, I think when you're looking at the health and optimal health is what we're all kind of striving for in our pets, we really have to take that holistic approach where you're looking at your nutrition, you're looking at mental stimulation, you're looking at physical engagement, and at the same point in time breaking that all down. So eating the same thing day in and day out, is not going to nourish your cells, it's not going to nourish the tissues and create a body that's vital. Just like doing the same exercise every day is not going to give you a well balanced physique, right? It's going to build certain muscles and leave certain muscles undeveloped. So when I'm thinking about a plan for someone to introduce into their dog's life, it's how can we make it as robust of a plan possible, so that we can really support every bodily system in every possible way through food, specifically through exercise and lifestyle changes?
Dr. Judy Morgan
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with that. And I have to say, I get a little bit frustrated.
Dr. Judy Morgan 2:40
Sometimes people will, you know, send me questions or they'll scheduled a time to speak with me. And they've been to a veterinary nutritionist who has given them one recipe for $500. And that one recipe has one carb, one protein source, and one vegetable source. And then a vitamin mineral mix, which is synthetic. And they're told never to vary from that. Well, that's no different than saying, put the same dry kibble in the bowl twice a day, every day never vary, never change. I think it's a disservice when we tell a pet parent, oh, you can only feed this exact recipe forever. First of all, it's such a disservice for the patient.
Dr. Judy Morgan 3:32
And then if people want to get a second recipe or have any variation to the recipe, they pay another small fortune. And I just don't think that's a good way to feed our pets.
Johnna Devereaux
Well, I mean, it's not the way that we would eat. Right. So I don't think what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander. Right? So if that's even the right, like I said, that expression that I've never used before. You know, especially you make the point about synthetic vitamins and mineral mixes, I mean, like, how much more harm can we do to our animals, if we want to feed them and give them the best nutrition, it should be coming from Whole Foods. So I know the recipes you speak of because I see them and it makes me cringe because it's like you're setting your animal up to fail. You know, even though the pet parent thinks they're doing the right thing, which is the most unfortunate part about this. So what can we do to help? You know at least ask the pet parents to be advocates, which I know you speak of all the time, but advocate for your pet and ask those questions. And if it makes your vet uncomfortable, that you're asking these questions, maybe that's not the right vet for you. Right, like you need to go out there and then get the answers that you need. So when we talk about synthetic vitamins and minerals, I am not a fan in any way, shape or form. I know for some pet parents that's a requirement right from a financial perspective.
Johnna Devereaux 5:00
Maybe they can't afford a true fresh food diet, but even just rotating through a variety of supplements, I love spirulina, I love alfalfa, I love moringa powder, I don't say do them all the time, I say, you know, take two days of adding spirulina then two days of adding alfalfa, then two days of out adding moringa powder, you know, just to kind of cycle through the different vitamins, you're gonna get a higher vitamin K from alfalfa that you are from moringa powder, you know, different vitamin B makeups, between Moringa and spirulina. And so it's just really making certain that you're getting that complete and balanced diet over time, not within just one day, which is the way no species on this planet eats.
Dr. Judy Morgan 5:43
It's true, that is how I can't imagine my doctor saying to me here, take this vitamin every single day, and it it's going to guarantee complete, balanced nutrition.
Dr. Judy Morgan 6:01
It just doesn't work that way. And it's funny, because people ask me quite often, what's the one vitamin mineral supplement that I should add to my home cooked diet to make it balanced? Well, there is no such beast, it really does not exist, because you may, first of all when you look at vitamin mineral supplements that are that are over the counter for, you know, just general wellbeing for pets. They are in such low quantities in there because they're really meant to be added to what is supposedly already a complete and balanced meal. Because they want to make sure that they're not that people aren't over supplementing, and for instance, getting too much copper, because we already know that a lot of the diets are overloaded with copper. And that's what why we ended up with copper storage, disease and so many other issues. So there really is. So for instance, when I first started before we had software and you know, ways to figure out what was actually missing from each recipe.
Dr. Judy Morgan 7:06
I used to have my favorite mineral supplement and my favorite vitamin supplement. And I would tell people, well, you know, you can rotate through your foods, this will balance the diet. Well, come to find out that mineral supplement has no zinc in it. So we're always low in zinc.
Dr. Judy Morgan 7:24
So we see this a lot. There really is no one size fits all. And that's one of the reasons with the rotation. I mean, gosh, I can't even imagine Can you imagine eating the same thing every meal every day?
Johnna Devereaux
I mean, I do eat the same thing for breakfast every day.
Johnna Devereaux 7:39
But that's an egg. That's an egg. Right? So I mean, we can't get more nutrition about you than eggs. But yeah, it's it just doesn't make any sense. And so just kind of thinking about that even further. As more people get educated about the gut microbiome, which is, you know, a fascinating area of science that we're continuing to learn more and more about in every single day in connections between the gut and every organ that we have.
Johnna Devereaux 8:06
Everyone's talking about probiotics, and you have people that are just jumping on the I've my dogs on a probiotic train, and it's going to be the same private probiotic every day, 365 days a year. And I'm up here raising my hand saying wait a second, you're not diversifying your gut microbiome. If you're feeding the same probiotic strain every single day. You want to be rotating through probiotic strains, right? Otherwise, all you do is you end up creating a monoculture which is not a diversified system. So when we're thinking about diversification, it does go past just food, right? It's in everything that we're doing for our animals.
Dr. Judy Morgan 8:45
Yeah, I agree. I mean, it's even diversification of meat. Some animals really like a routine and some people really like a routine. But change up your walk schedule change up where you walk, can you imagine your only exercise is the same exact path for five minutes every day of your life. We take our dogs to the park when the weather is not scalding hot. But we go to different parks and we love exploring different parks and taking them for different sniffaris on different days. It makes a huge difference for their mental well being like it's really exciting to go somewhere new and see different things.
Dr. Judy Morgan 9:26
So I totally agree that we need to diversify what we're doing. Just in general.
Johnna Devereaux
Yeah. And even if you only had the opportunity, you know, because you have travel limitations or whatnot where you have to walk that same path, go in a different direction. You know, like just doing simple changes or get a Bosu ball and teach your dog to get up on the bosu ball and use their core muscles or, you know, get a little stool and teach them how to put their front legs up just engage the stabilizing muscles right which is so good. Um, I mean, you know this better than I do, but it's so crucial to the cruciate, the CCL, the cranial cruciate ligament, right? Kind of, especially if you had a dog that had a type of surgery or injury, to build up those stabilizing muscles, which they're not doing when they're just walking straight, or, you know, put down broom handles every so, so many inches and make them start to work the stifles right. And just it's that type of, we don't need to go out and reinvent the wheel, we don't need to go out an hour away from our front door to create diversity in what we're doing. There are things inside our home, we just have to be creative with it, that can really benefit your dog in a multitude of ways.
Dr. Judy Morgan 10:41
Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting, because you're talking about doing cavalettis basically and strengthening core muscles. And a lot of people do not have access to physical therapy if they have an animal with an injury or they need to rehab from a surgery or something. But it can be so simple, you can do so much at home. So it's kind of funny, when I lived in southern New Jersey, the landscape there is very flat. But you can find some small subtle hills here and there. Or if you're at the beach, you can walk in sand.
Dr. Judy Morgan 11:16
But I would tell people look, you know, if you can't afford to go to physical therapy, that's fine. Let's go find a little hill let's go find some little steps let's walk up and down the curb is just enough for them to be you know, step off the curb step on the curb step off the curb your your neighbors will think you're a little crazy when they watch you walking up and down the curb with your with your dog. But even for kitty cats, kitty cats do go to physical therapy, some of them love to swim in the underwater treadmills. But you can do cavalettis with your cats, you can do exercises with your cats, you can do those same core strengthening exercises like the BOSU balls, and so for some of my dogs with hind end weakness, some of the little short dogs, it's like just go to your local store and get kids play like the rubber balls, and you slide them in under their belly and then just do rocking exercises with them on their back end. So you can find the right size ball no matter what size dog a tennis ball might work for some of those little short guys. But you know it, we don't have to spend a ton of money to be able to do some physical therapy, rehab, varying the routine, giving them that exposure to something a little bit different.
Johnna Devereaux
Yeah, I mean, I even go so far, which my neighbors probably do think I'm crazy, because I now take my cat Henry in a backpack because I want to have diversification in his environment too. But I'll take my little girl Lola. And when we're out on a walk, I'll make her turn around. And I have taught her to walk backwards. So I don't make her do it. Oh, I don't make her do it for a long period of time, but she takes 10 steps. And that's engaging a whole different set of muscles that she normally wouldn't be using, which just makes her stronger. And as she gets older, I have people stopping me saying How old is your puppy? Well, she just turned nine. And they think she's a two and a half year old dog. So it just goes to show that these little tweaks that people might poopoo away really do make a difference when you compound them and do them regularly. Right? Once a year is not going to get you the benefits but
Dr. Judy Morgan 13:22
we don't we don't want weekend warriors. We need to take a quick break to hear from our sponsor. We'll be back in just a minute.
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Dr. Judy Morgan
welcome back to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast with my guest today Johnna Devereaux is a clinical pet nutritionist and we're talking about diversity in really everything in our pets lives. So we already talked about diversification as far as probiotics, you know, changing the strains of probiotics, the sources, I'm a huge fan of soil based probiotics but I even chang between different ones.
Dr. Judy Morgan 14:45
diversification of exercises and activities because that has a huge effect on core strength and body strength, tendon and ligament strength but also mental well being. Our pets spend a lot of times by themselves, usually, particularly our kitty cats, and we tend to kind of ignore them. They're sleeping, they're happy. But with our dogs as well, if you work outside the home and your dog spends a lot of time alone, it's really, really, really critical for their mental well being to get that exercise activity, mental stimulation. So I want to move on and talk about diversification in the diet, because you are a pet nutritionist. And this is an we all know that I love to talk about food.
Dr. Judy Morgan 15:31
So one of the common questions that I hear is, How often should I change up what's in the bowl? And how many different things should I change through? So how do you approach that?
Johnna Devereaux
So the first thing I always want to ask, obviously, is how are you feeding right? If you're feeding kibble, that's going to be a different answer than if you were feeding fresh, just because for so many dogs that have GI tract issues because of the pro inflammatory nature of kibble that if you're switching from brand to brand, there may be some distress, so you'd have to do it a little bit differently. If you are feeding kibble, you know, I do recommend that you want to at least change between every bag, so that you are getting different vitamin and mineral synthetic packs, you're getting a slightly different variation, get a different Protein.
Dr. Judy Morgan
So you're recommending changing brands,
Johnna Devereaux
yeah, if you can find if you can find two to three high quality brands that have the higher protein, lower carbs, which I know that's hard to find in the kibble, but lower carbs that your dog really likes. And I would rotate through different brands to really diversify the nutrient mix that you're seeing across the different brands. Oftentimes, if you stick within one brand, you're going to get that same mineral and vitamin mix throughout the proteins that they offer.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Well, it may be the same vitamin mineral mix, well it will be but a lot of times the ingredients are very, very similar. They may change the protein, but then when you when you read down the ingredient list and you're standing there, and you know it's brand A, so here's their beef flavor, here's their chicken flavor, here's their fish flavor, and then you look at it you Oh, everything below the first couple of ingredients is exactly the same, so you're not diversifying very much.
Johnna Devereaux
Now if you have a dog, obviously, I'm gonna have the asterisk that has severe GI distress. First of all, I would implore you to please do more research about going to a fresher diet, because as we all know, you're spending probably a lot of money at the vet dealing with that inflammation and all of the issues that result that you could be spending towards a better diet that would alleviate the need to go to the vet and you would
Johnna Devereaux 17:43
you would very quickly be able to help the body heal itself and to heal through the GI distress with obviously you know, supplementation, glutamine, etc, things that you've talked about a lot in the past, I'm sure
Johnna Devereaux 17:57
if you're feeding a fresh food diet, you know, I say rotate, rotate at every meal if you can, if you have the ability, rotate, you know, give rabbit in the morning, duck at night, Turkey the next morning chicken the next night, depending on how big your dogs are, you know, you can, you can buy those little chubs or those little packages and you can rotate out and give them a different protein at each meal. If you're making food for your dog, it's obviously a little bit harder. In which case, I would say only make a week's worth of food. And in that week's worth of food, make it a protein, pick three low starch, low glycemic vegetables, same thing with the fruit and then the following week, do a new protein, pick three different vegetables, two different fruits and rotate through it that way.
Johnna Devereaux 18:41
So that's my recommendation if you think you know, obviously, we all know common sense that an animal in nature is not eating the same thing every day. So if we can try to mimic nature as much as possible, that's what's going to be best for our pets.
Dr. Judy Morgan 18:59
Yeah, I have a lot of people who they'll take one day a month, and that's dog food making day. We used to do that. At one point we had 10 dogs, and we were grinding all of our own raw meals. But I would do three or four different grinds. So we'd have to do about 200 pounds at a time. But I would have different grinds that I would make and then just label them and throw them all in the freezer. So it's like oh, I can pull out a chicken grind. I can pull out a beef grind. I can pull out a fish grind. And then my different veggie mixes as well. And so if you're somebody who wants to take do everything in in one day, just make a few different recipes, label them, throw them in the freezer and then you've got that ability to rotate without having to make new food every day or every every week. So just kind of batch things is a great way to save time and shopping time And then all that.
Johnna Devereaux 20:00
And for those people that feed, you know, commercially prepared raw food, obviously switch through their proteins, you know, grab, grab two or three, six pound bags defrost different proteins at a time. And then I always encourage people at least once a once a month, go to another high quality raw food that is a different brand, again, that offers different vegetables, different fruits, I'm a big advocate of two specific companies that only use whole food. There is no synthetic vitamins or minerals in their foods. So I always stress a try to rotate within that, you know, if you're feeding 100% Whole Foods go into a raw commercial that is going to be providing synthetic vitamins I would not say is is a good move. I think that's a backward step, not a not a lateral move. So always try to think laterally in your diversification with what you're doing.
Dr. Judy Morgan 20:52
Yeah, yeah, even in my freezer for my dogs and cats right now. I'm trying, I think I have four different brands that we rotate, they have one brand that they eat, the majority of the time, and within that brand, there, they have multiple proteins that they're rotating through. But then I have other brands and other proteins from other companies, so that I have that ability to change things up. And I will you know, I know that people get they've heard from their veterinarian or they tried to switch once before and the pet got diarrhea. And then they get scared. I'm never doing that. Again. I can tell you that if you have an animal with a healthy microbiome and a healthy gut, you don't have to be afraid like everybody wants to do this. Oh, I have to do 25% of this one for a week with 75%. And then I can go to 50/50 for a week. I have never done that with my animals. I've never done that even when I bring rescues in that are on a dry kibble diet. I have always been the Quick Change artist because I don't have kibble in my house. I could not.
Dr. Judy Morgan 22:02
I could not in good conscience. But if I get into rescue that's got skin disease and ear infections and goopy eyes. Why am I going to continue feeding what they've been eating for even one more meal? Because clearly it's not working.
Johnna Devereaux
I don't think in the almost decade I've been doing this, I don't think I've ever had a dog. Get off kibble to a fresher food diet ever have diarrhea? or loose stool? I don't think it's ever happened. In fact, the calls I get are I think they're constipated. Because they're really not pooping very big. And I'm like, no, no, no, that's, that's what we're going for. we're aiming for less volume, it means the body's utilizing the nutrients. Like that's what it means for your dog to actually be eating and benefiting from what you're feeding. It's not a plumbing. It's not just like an egg straight through the pipe. So but yeah.
Dr. Judy Morgan
exactly. And there, I'm seeing more and more whole food brands that are not adding in synthetic vitamins and minerals. So there are so many more choices now. That I think I think we do have the option now is it going to is it going to cost more to have to buy premade completely balanced food? Yes, it's like eating out having somebody else prepare your food, every meal is always going to cost more. So I think we also have there's enough pre balanced recipes out there that for people who are on a budget.
Dr. Judy Morgan 23:29
We tell people all the time, just shop sales shop. It's funny, I have a lot of friends in the UK. I'm in a homemade food for dogs group in the UK. And they'll post their finds they're like, oh my gosh, this was on sale. It was on its last date. Well, that's great. Bring it home, grind it up and throw it in the freezer. Or cook it if you're if you're going to cook it.
Dr. Judy Morgan 23:54
But I'll tell you, you can I've done videos where I go to the grocery store and I can make a pretty complete meal for my for my dogs for you know, well. It's a little more now but you know, $2.29 a pound versus spending $10 a pound for somebody else making it for me. I people just get too scared to do it.
Johnna Devereaux
They do and I also tell people to like be resourceful. I have a yard that I've lived here for 13 years there has never been a chemical sprayed on it. So I go outside and I pick dandelions from my yard. I don't pay a dime for them. And they are such a beneficial nutrient and food source. So you can go out there or you know I grow sage or cilantro. Like there are things that you can do right now autumn olives are growing all over my yard and it's like ah, that's like a free free source of antioxidants and vitamin C that Lola is going to be getting in her food. So, you know, it doesn't have to be expensive. But again, I just encourage people don't get into that rut of this is what I do. This is what I know and now I don't want to break out of it because you're Definitely feeding better, especially in the fresh world. Than if you're feeding kibble, you're still there's still room to grow. So just, you know, diversify, diversify, diversify!
Dr. Judy Morgan 25:12
Absolutely. Well, and I like that, you know, even for those who do need to feed kibble you're giving them some helpful hints on even diversifying within that. So I never want to shame people who are at, you know, wherever you are in your feeding journey for your pet, being able to get some diversification in there is so critically important. And I wish we could get veterinarians to Stop spouting the put the same thing in the bowl, never change, do gradual changes. I think we have scared people. And unnecessarily.
Johnna Devereaux
You're right. We definitely have. But I think people are becoming more aware. Right. That's one of the one of the benefits of social media is that people are asking questions now. So that's a fantastic fact. I will say one other thing. Just talking about lifestyle that we don't want to leave out is diversifying the mental stimulation. A lot of people do puzzle toys and whatnot for their dogs, and they're are such a beneficial way to increase, you know, and create new neuro pathways in the brain that, you know, changing up the games you eat and play with your dog is going to only benefit them the same thing with cats change up how you play with your cat.
Dr. Judy Morgan 26:32
Exactly, exactly. Yep, really, really critical. All right, so let's see, where can people get more information about Bow Wow Labs and Fetch RI?
Johnna Devereaux
BowWowLabs.com or FetchRI.com is the easiest way to find us and where everything's on social media too with @BowWowLabs or @FetchRI and then they can find me at @johnnadevereauxcpn on Instagram.
Dr. Judy Morgan 26:58
Awesome, and you do nutritional consultations for people? Correct?
Dr. Judy Morgan 27:03
Which is awesome, because we need more people that have the ability to do that. Thank you so much, Johnna. You and I are definitely on the same page with diversification and helping our pets have more vital, healthier lives.
Outro
Thanks for listening to another great Naturally Healthy Pets episode. Be sure to check out the show notes for some helpful links. And if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. We value your feedback and we'd love to hear from you on how we're doing. Visit DrJudyMorgan.com for healthy product recommendations, comprehensive courses, upcoming events and other fantastic resources. Until next time, keep giving your pet the vibrant life they deserve.
DISCLAIMER
The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Dr. Judy and her guests express their own views, experience and conclusions. Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets neither endorses or opposes any particular view discussed here.
