Dr. Judy Morgan 0:00
Welcome to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. Let's get to it.
Dr. Judy Morgan 0:05
Welcome to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Judy Morgan. My guest today is Joni Kamlet and I actually reading her bio learned a couple things that I didn't know because we've known each other for a while. Today we are going to talk about mushrooms and how mushrooms can help our pets because Joni is big into mushrooms and we're going to discuss that but Joni is a registered veterinary technician. I did not know that and certified in canine rehabilitation. I did not know that! You've been hiding things. Joni witnessed the benefits of raw feeding homeopathy and herbs in 1996 when her dog was diagnosed with mammary cancer, and Joni was diagnosed with ovarian cancer at the same time, congratulations, you're still here because that's a tough one. That is amazing. And both of their positive responses to natural therapies started Joni on her holistic path, and she's been working in the field of integrative veterinary medicine ever since. Welcome Joni.
Joni Kamlet
Thank you. It's so good to be here. Dr. Judy, um, as you know, I'm a huge fan. I follow you everywhere.
Dr. Judy Morgan 1:12
Yeah, you do. We've been spending a lot of time at events together lately.
Joni Kamlet
You're probably sick of me by now.
Dr. Judy Morgan
No, never ever. So. Okay. So your dog had mammary cancer. And you had ovarian cancer at the same time. And I know that's not what this is about. But I know, first of all, that's amazing. Because we do know that our pets take on a lot of things from us. So I guess I'm not hugely shocked that both of you had a similar cancer at the same time. So Did either of you go through traditional route and just add on integrative or natural therapies, or did you use totally natural therapies?
Joni Kamlet
Well, so yeah, I mean, I knew nothing about integrative therapies at all when this happened. So this was really my life changing experience, you know, that sent me on the path. But they took an 18 centimeter cyst out of me. So it was the size of a six month fetus. That was encapsulating my right ovary. And usually cysts are not cancerous. So I had said, like, unless you know, it's cancer, don't take anything else. So they didn't. And then they came back a week later and said, We sent it out to three different labs and it is cancer. We want to go back in and give you a complete hysterectomy stage you from your diaphragm to your bowel, you know, so figure out what stage and then do chemo and radiation and something in me just said no. Like, I knew nothing. I'd been a bartender. I drank, was a college dropout. Like I knew nothing. Like, you know, I was just kind of living my life.
Joni Kamlet 2:54
And in that moment, everything changed. And yeah, my dog Waffles had the mammary cancer. And so it was looking for things to do instead of the Western medicine, which just it scared the heck out of me, you know. And so I did everything I you know, macrobiotic diet, Chinese herbs.
Joni Kamlet 3:19
I became a raw food vegan. I did. Funny. I didn't know about mushrooms back then. So I did everything without mushrooms. And I started doing the same things with my dog Waffles that I was doing for myself, homeopathy being one of them, and found a homeopathic vet. And anyway, here I am. It's like, what, 27-28 years later? You know, and, you know, I'll say they could have gotten the cancer with a surgery. Like, we'll never know, because I walked away from the western medicine.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Wow. and, frankly, so much of chemo actually causes cancer. So sometimes you get sort of in remission or cured from lung cancer, then end up with something else. And certainly, we know the side effects are atrocious.
Dr. Judy Morgan 4:14
so good for you, you'd probably feel a lot worse.
Joni Kamlet
Yeah, I mean, looking back, I you know, I'm so grateful. You know, I did what I did, and I'm grateful for the outcome. And like I said, it set me on my path. I went, you know, I knew I wanted to work in integrative medicine, and the idea of working with people, to be honest, just totally creeped me out. I always loved animals.
Dr. Judy Morgan
I'm the same way. I can't like human medicine. If you cut your finger, I'm leaving the room.
Joni Kamlet
I don't want to deal with any human fluids. But the animal it's like, oh my gosh, let me you know, let me look at this abscess and see what comes out. But that's typical in the vet world. We love to squeeze things and see what comes out. Right.
Dr. Judy Morgan 4:55
Yeah, but not on people. So. So when did you Discover mushrooms?
Joni Kamlet
So, um, that was that was not until 2019. So, you know, I went I became, you know, I went into hands on vet medicine, went in, went into canine rehabilitation and then started working for Standard Process. And so I worked for Standard Process for a decade from starting in 2010.
Joni Kamlet 5:26
And Standard Process was going through some transitions in 2019. And my, one of my mentors and teachers, herbalist, named Lee Carroll was, became very interested in mushrooms. He was working for MediHerb, and he left MediHerb to go work for a company called a duco formulating a mushroom product. And I followed him. And I knew nothing about mushrooms. But I was going to be the one that was going to be sharing these mushroom supplements with veterinarians. And we were using the Nammex mushrooms which is the parent company for Real Mushrooms. And it was I went down the rabbit hole of Lion's Mane, learning about Lion's Mane and the benefits and had such a profound experience with Lion's Mane with a group of veterinarians that were using it for dogs with degenerative myelopathy that it changed my life. I mean, I've now moved to Virginia from Berkeley, California. I bought five acres
Joni Kamlet 6:28
four of its forested and have just left you know, went to Real Mushrooms and said please hire me all I want to do is work with mushrooms for the rest of my life. And they did. Along with Rob Silver.
Dr. Judy Morgan
nothing like having a you know, somebody who wants to be an employee come in and say all I want to do is work with mushrooms and you're a mushroom supplement company. Yeah, that would work.
Joni Kamlet
Exactly. So yeah. So I scheduled in the owner like he listened and I guess I saw the wisdom. And along with Dr. Rob Silver, who is the formulator for our product line. I've been doing it ever since and so I get to spend all day reading about mushrooms, talking about mushrooms, foraging for mushrooms in my yard you know, when I'm not talking about them
Dr. Judy Morgan 7:20
I need to get one of those plant identifier apps. Is there a mushroom identifier app that I can get on my phone?
Joni Kamlet
Yeah, there's a few, I mean, I wouldn't eat a mushroom that a mushroom map identifies like you know they're not 100% And I like to use INaturalist or actually the Facebook mushroom group in your area is the best. If you go on. Like every state has a mushroom group and you can post pictures of a mushroom you find and there's so many people that will give you good identification.
Dr. Judy Morgan
I had no clue there were like mushroom aficionados.
Joni Kamlet
There's crazy mushroom people all over the country.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Crazy mushroom everywhere. only because you know I see like, especially if my husband mows the fields. When there's a lot of mushrooms out there. Of course we're spreading the spores everywhere. And then two weeks later, it's like I have a really nice crop out here. I have no idea if it's good or bad.
Joni Kamlet 8:24
We usually call them LBM, little brown mushrooms. Which there's like 10,000 varieties.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Okay, these are big white mushrooms. I don't know what they are. But they're popping up everywhere.
Joni Kamlet
You'll have to send me pictures.
Dr. Judy Morgan 8:39
I can do that.
Joni Kamlet
My text is full of people who send me mushroom pictures and I love it. Please keep sending them.
Dr. Judy Morgan
You know, I think mushroom pictures will be better than what I get in my inbox because mine are usually poop pictures.
Joni Kamlet 8:52
Yeah, I'll take the mushrooms. Thank you.
Dr. Judy Morgan 8:58
Yeah, exactly. Okay, so mushroom supplement quality issues, because I've been learning a lot about mushrooms listening to Angela Ardolino talk about talk about mushrooms and how they're processed and how they're grown and all of that kind of stuff.
Dr. Judy Morgan 9:15
But the question I have for you, I mean, we know that we want the whole mushroom, not a lot of substrate ground up in there.
Dr. Judy Morgan 9:26
But does it matter? It so if I'm getting mushrooms from a company that is harvesting them correctly and letting them grow to be the whole mushroom? Does it matter whether it's in a liquid or a powder or a chew? Like are they all the same? bioavailability or does it change?
Joni Kamlet
You know? That's a great question. And I don't think we are completely clear on the answer to that yet. I mean, I I'll address the powder mushroom issue because that's what we work with.
Joni Kamlet 10:00
One thing I'll say about mushroom quality is there's three parts to a fungus. There's the mushroom, which is the part that's the above ground, that's what you see. It's the typical image of a mushroom, you know, it's kind of like, like, looks like a mushroom. And then there's the spore, which is the reproductive part. And then there's the mycelium, which is, I guess could best be compared to the roots of a plant. Although fungi and plants are completely separate, they have their own kingdoms.
Joni Kamlet 10:35
But the biggest challenge with mushroom quality is that mushrooms are very, they're hard to grow, they're very particular they need they need a particular light, they need water, air. And in order for that actual mushroom, which is the part the above ground part to, to decide to, to come up.
Joni Kamlet 10:57
It takes between three and six months and most mushroom companies. They don't have time to wait for that to happen financially. They can't do it for efficiency reasons. So what they do is they inject the mushroom spore into a block of rice or oats, and then that mycelium kind of the little fingers in the mycelium grow all in through that the oats or the rice, and maybe a few mushroom what they call fruiting bodies will pop up. But for the most part, it's just a whole lot of mycelium encapsulated in that rice or oat and there's no way to separate that mycelium. So what they do is they grind up that block of rice or oats with the mycelium and they call it a mushroom. And it's not a mushroom. It's and I'm not saying that is not a good, you know, I'm not addressing the quality of that product. I'm addressing the transparency of doing that.
Joni Kamlet 11:57
And so you know, I would say buyer beware as far as that and some companies label it as like mycelilated grain or mycelium on grain. If you have a dog on the ketogenic diet or you're trying to avoid grains, people you know sometimes they have a dog with cancer, they don't know that they're getting that that "mushroom product" has grain in it. So regarding quality, I'd say be very careful about that. This is why we call ourselves Real Mushrooms because we don't use the grain or the mycelium. Now. Mycelium has great benefits. There are a lot of clinical studies happening. There's no traditional history of with mycelium. So, I like to combine the traditional uses with the latest in modern science and there's just that's just not there with mycelium.
Joni Kamlet 12:45
But if people are out there looking for a mushroom product, make sure I would say if you're looking for a mushroom, make sure it's not that mycelium on grain or mod product. Now the liquid issue I've become very interested in the tinctures and I've like reached out to Angela, I reached out to Julie Anne from Adored Beast. And I think that there's a lot of benefits to the tinctures.
Joni Kamlet 13:07
I still trying to figure out how the Beta Glucan quality is determined in the liquid tinctures. And I've been kind of going down that rabbit hole and I haven't I've yet to get the a clear answer.
Joni Kamlet 13:23
There's a method called the McCleery method, which is the kind of the gold standard of testing for beta glucans. And I know a lot of these companies that use liquid they they use a modified McCleery method. And I don't know what that modified method is, so this is where it's me being just kind of a mushroom nerd. And I just want to know everything. Having said that, I love the tinctures and I think that Angela's product and the Adored Beast products here are wonderful.
Dr. Judy Morgan 13:53
Which is good because we like them as well. We need to take a quick break to hear from our sponsor. We'll be right back to talk more about mushrooms.
PRODUCT SPOTLIGHT
Isn't it amazing to learn about how mushrooms can benefit our pets? As a thank you for listening to this podcast get 10% off any Real Mushroom products featured on NaturallyHealthyPets.com using the code PODCAST17. Real Mushrooms is Dr. Judy's recommendation for 100% Organic mushroom extract powders and capsules. Support your dog or cat's health with these mushroom supplements verified with beta glucans and no grain fillers.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Welcome back to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. My guest today is Joni Kamlet, who happens to be a mushroom nerd as we have just learned.
Dr. Judy Morgan 14:40
So yeah, I'm a huge fan of the Myco Dog and Adored Beast tinctures. But I'm also a huge fan of Real Mushrooms powder. And so my little guy who has cancer is on all of the above.
Dr. Judy Morgan 15:00
So I'll ask you this, my feeling is sort of like you kind of can't overdo mushrooms. I don't think we could feed enough mushrooms to kill somebody. I mean, good mushrooms.
Joni Kamlet
Yeah, exactly. There are again, I should say, you know, I try to say in every podcast, do not feed your pet or eat mushrooms that you forage unless you're an expert mycologist or have somebody that can identify them. We're talking about medicinal mushrooms that have been vetted. So, you know, be careful there. But, but you know, mushrooms, some amazing thing about mushrooms is they're functional foods. And they're therapeutic, you know, you know, the therapeutic outlays our medicine even though they're, you know, that word is very Western, but you it would be like overdosing on, you know, broccoli or something like that.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Right. So, I mean, technically, you could, you can overdose on water. So technically, I suppose you could overdose on anything. But mushrooms are so good for gut health. The fiber is just a great prebiotic, but they're, they're also really good. Yeah. Now, all the different mushrooms sort of have. I mean, they're all beneficial, but they seem to target certain things. So you said you started out really learning about so much about lion's Mane and studies for that? So let's talk about Lion's Mane, where when? When would you want to incorporate Lion's Mane as your main mushroom?
Joni Kamlet
So I would use Lion's Mane with any older dog and I should just I'll try to make this really quick. So when I, I was reading, I was studying up on Lion's Mane to be able to teach my veterinarians how to use it. And there was a clinical study supporting the benefit of Lion's Mane to help with a regeneration of the myelin sheath. And this is something that when dogs have degenerative myelopathy that myelin sheath begins to wear away. And so when I read this, I sent the lion's mane out to all my rehab vets. I said, try this with your rehab dogs with your DM dogs. Let me know how it works. Well, the feedback was so so for DM. But all the pet parents that were using it wanted to keep the product because the cognitive changes in their pets were noticeable. And it happened pretty quickly.
Joni Kamlet 17:20
And I was working with 12 vets, and I've never had this happen all 12 veterinarians gave positive feedback on the lion's mane related to cognitive function. They said, you know, dogs were finding the dog door where they couldn't before they were making direct eye contact, initiating play, not vocalizing at night, finding their way around the furniture. We actually did a study group, because I was so blown away. And you have to remember I wasn't looking for cognitive changes, I was looking for DM changes. So that's when I say it was my gateway. It really was. So any older animal with cognitive issues, but it also supports nerve growth factor. It's great for any neurologic issue. Traditionally, lion's mane was used for the gut. So IBD and ulcers was originally how Lion's Mane has been used for, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years. So, you know, an older dog with digestive issues, maybe they're on Rimidyl or something like that. The Lion's Mane can support the gut. All mushrooms are a great prebiotic, but it's also going to support their cognitive abilities and their ability to move basically.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Awesome. So what other mushrooms would be more specific for gut health? I mean, they're all good. But do you have? Do you have other ones that you really like for gut health? Because IBD and allergies are like the biggest problems that veterinarians treat dogs for. cats a little bit, but I mean, that's, that's the biggies. So is there another specific mushroom that you would try for gut health?
Joni Kamlet
Well, Turkey Tail is a great prebiotic. I mean, all mushrooms have prebiotic qualities. So you're not going to go wrong, no matter which mushroom you pick. Chaga is often used to support gut health. Personally, I like our Five Defenders, and you know, we've talked about it because it's got Turkey Tail, Chaga, and my taki, Reishi. And shitaki
Joni Kamlet 19:28
So, you know, for gut health. I would just go right to right to the Five Defenders because you know, the, the beta glucans in the in all mushrooms. They make great prebiotics. They're actually not digested well in the system. They stay in the gut and they they you know, they act as wonderful prebiotics.
Dr. Judy Morgan 19:53
So, we were talking about allergies recently as one of our focus weeks And we were we, we chose Reishi as kind of our top allergy one because it actually functions sort of as a natural antihistamine. So, so with that said, For, we see so much mast cell cancer in dogs would Reishi be our mushroom of choice for mast cell dogs?
Joni Kamlet
I would, I would definitely be giving high doses of Reishi. Although you have to be aware Reishi is very, very bitter. It's the most bitter of all the mushrooms and you want a bitter Reishi because that the bitterness is related to the quality, the more bitter the better quality Reishi you're getting. But if you are using reishi, you're not going to want to like mix the powder in with the food, you're probably going to want to give it as a capsule. Or if there's a tincture, I don't know, the tinctures would probably be a little bitter, but maybe they're mixed with something that makes you know the flavor that makes it tastes a little better. But that that would be my one caution about Reishi.
Dr. Judy Morgan
so the only reason not to mix it with the food is just because it's a better
Joni Kamlet 21:04
Animals you know instinctively avoid bitter because most poisons happen to be better. But also many many good medicines actually many good digestive medicines that support digestion are also bitter. I think on the human side think of digestive bitters. This is why you know we drink these before we eat food.
Dr. Judy Morgan
That's interesting. Yeah, I have to say my little guy that is on so many mushrooms. He is on three tinctures. And the Five Defenders powder, and he just chows down. thank God he's a good eater. He's just like okay, how much more stuff are you going to throw in my food?
Dr. Judy Morgan 21:54
Okay, so for our seniors, we definitely want to do lion's mane and then for any kind of like severe allergies, maybe straight Reishi.
Joni Kamlet
Chaga is also good for allergies, I would say Reishi probably my first choice but Chaga is also has some anti antihistaminic, Anti allergenic effects.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Now Turkey Tail has been studied pretty extensively for cancers. So would that be your kind of your go to as far as general cancer?
Joni Kamlet
Yeah, if I had a dog with cancer, I'd be giving very high doses of Turkey Tail. I will say those studies that were done, there was two studies done on Turkey Tail and it was done on the Turkey Tail mycelium, not on the fruiting body. Although just to be clear, because we talked about those MOG products. This was a mycelium that they extracted in a liquid broth. Very complicated process. It's patented, it's a it's a product called immunity. And this is why it's so expensive is because it's so complicated to make. very different than myceliated products that you can find in the marketplace. And there was a study in 2012, dogs with hemangio sarcoma had extended survival times on high doses of this immunity product. Now, but unfortunately, there was another study done in 2022. With a high allergic cohort of dogs, there was about 100 compared to think about between nine and 12 dogs in the first study, and it wasn't as impressive. I mean, I'll just be frank, it was not as impressive.
Joni Kamlet 23:27
And they used more parameters. They had some dogs that were on chemo, some words somewhere on the chemo and the Turkey Tail
Joni Kamlet 23:37
Male dogs did better than female dogs, interestingly.
Joni Kamlet 23:41
But honestly, we weren't surprised, because our feeling is that you want the whole fruiting body or the whole mushroom. As opposed to the mycelium.
Dr. Judy Morgan
But you know, it's interesting, because that original study on the immunity products was done at University of Pennsylvania, and I was practicing in Southern New Jersey.
Dr. Judy Morgan 24:01
And you just, you just sparked a memory for me. Because I think that's when I really started and I didn't actually didn't use that product. But that's when I really started incorporating mushrooms into a lot of my protocols because of that study. You know, unfortunately, yes, that is an expensive product. And now I understand why. So thank you for that. And a lot of my clients could not afford it. Yeah, especially for big dogs. So that was why we just said okay, well let's find other mushroom outlets avenues. And unfortunately, I didn't know near as much about how they're harvested or you know, whole mushroom versus, you know, the MOG products back then. So I think we were using a fermented mushroom product that had multiple mushrooms in it. couldn't even begin to tell you how it was made or what parts of the mushroom were included. But it just became a really important part of all of my protocols for sick animals.
Dr. Judy Morgan 25:06
So, I've been using mushrooms for a long of time, but it's only actually in the past few years, since we've started carrying mushroom products that I've had to really look at how they're made and how they work. And that sort of thing that, you know, I have so much better understanding of mushroom products.
Joni Kamlet
And you know, you know, on the integrative medicine side, we don't have the kind of money to do the clinical studies, I mean, Real Mushrooms, we would love, you know, we have it on our, you know, on our list to do clinical studies on, you know, the fruiting body, you know, at high doses to see, you know, for dogs Maybe, and maybe not pick hemangiosarcoma. I mean, they picked the one of the hardest cancers to, you know, to cure. I mean, you know, luckily, you know, it did extend, you know, the mushrooms can, you know, in many cases extend life. But, you know, and I know, you probably get tons of anecdotal feedback from people that are using Turkey Tail and the benefits.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Yeah, my, my biggest problem with feedback and studies is like, for instance, my little guy, he's on a whole bunch of mushroom products, but then he's on a whole bunch of other things as well. And so when you're looking at clinical studies, you want to only have one variable that you're looking at. And if you're like me, and you've got a pet with cancer, you're gonna throw the kitchen sink at...
Dr. Judy Morgan 26:30
I'm not not throwing the chemo kitchen sink or the radiation kitchen sink, but anything natural that I think is going to help this little guy, he's on a lot of whole food products. he's low on a lot of herbs, and he's on a lot of mushroom products.
Dr. Judy Morgan 26:44
And knock on wood. So far, so good. You know, I'm ecstatic about where we're, we're going with him. So I think mushrooms are a huge part of any kind of cancer protocol, but I think that they really need to be incorporated as just a general daily supplement. Because they also work for cancer prevention, not just treatment.
Joni Kamlet
I like to say they add a vigilance and a vitality to the system. And you know, it's, you know, mushrooms are not for the most part, not acute use products. They should be taken daily. I think lifelong and what you'll notice in your if you're taking them to yourself, or in your pets is you have more energy. You don't succumb to colds and flus as easily.
Joni Kamlet 27:37
You sleep better, mentally, you know, mushy, there are mushrooms that can help balance your mood. Reishi for instance. Tremella is another one. So just it gives you an overall vitality. And it will be the same for your pets.
Dr. Judy Morgan 27:55
Awesome. Okay. We're out of time. I can talk to you about mushrooms for a long time. This is this is and this kind of surprises me that I can talk about mushrooms. But I mean they are they're just amazing. So Real Mushrooms is the company that Joni works for right now. They're on all the social media so you can follow them and we have the Real Mushrooms products on our website. So you can read about each of the mushrooms and what they're recommended for and their different uses. But Jonie, thanks for all the work that you're doing. And you're helping a lot of animals and people and we really appreciate you.
Joni Kamlet
As are you. Thank you Dr. Judy
Outro
Thanks for listening to another great Naturally Healthy Pets episode. Be sure to check out the show notes for some helpful links. And if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. We value your feedback and we'd love to hear from you on how we're doing. Visit DrJudyMorgan.com for healthy product recommendations, comprehensive courses, upcoming events and other fantastic resources. Until next time, keep giving your pet the vibrant life they deserve.
DISCLAIMER
The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Dr. Judy and her guests express their own views, experience and conclusions. Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets neither endorses or opposes any particular view discussed here.
