Intro 0:00
Welcome to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. Let's get to it.
Dr. Judy Morgan 0:04
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. I'm your host, Dr Judy Morgan, and I have two of my favorite people here as guests today, the Two Crazy Cat Ladies. I just love the name in general, but Jae Kennedy and Adrienne, I'm gonna screw up your last name. Say it Lefebvre. Oh my gosh, no, I wasn't going there. Okay, I guess I've never heard it pronounced out loud before. All right, so the two crazy cat ladies are a little crazy, but they are cat advocates, social media influencers, bloggers and content creators, but really their cat, their cat advocate thing is the big part. motivated by the lack of available resources for natural feline health, Jae and Adrienne have dedicated their lives to learning and sharing all they can to help cats live the longest, healthiest and happiest lives possible. They host regular live shows on social media, the one in the closet the most fun to connect with cat parents, as well as sharing tips about cat health and happiness via blogs and videos. Also worth mentioning, they usually have a cocktail in hand. Yes, too early. It's early. It's very early.
Dr. Judy Morgan 1:18
So our topic today is Are Cats 2nd Class Citizens In The Pet World?
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies
We love this topic so much. Yeah? And I feel like it's not covered enough, yeah, especially in the I agree, I would say,
Dr. Judy Morgan
Yeah, well, and it's funny, because what we have discovered my platform has been veterinary medicine, kind of across the board, cats and dogs. We even do some horse stuff, and now we do a little chicken stuff. But somehow it people really started feeling like it was skewed more toward dogs. And because my dogs were always on set, my cats usually were not on set. And so then we, like the cat people, started coming out of the woodwork and saying you need to do more cat stuff. And I'm like, Well, I mean, you know, a urinary tract infection is a urinary tract infection. No, it's not.
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies 2:11
That's something about cat people. They love cat specific stuff. But I do, especially in the pet health world, you know, there's so many things that are like, uh, great for pet health, and then you realize it's actually not appropriate for cats. So you want something that's specific, yeah, it was made. It's not necessarily that it's not appropriate or not say, like in the supplement world, right? Like, not necessarily healthy for cats, but it wasn't, you can tell that it wasn't made with cats in mind, right? That, like, it's
Dr. Judy Morgan
you need to give three teaspoons of this powder, and your cat says, Yeah, sure,
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies 2:45
right, yes, or it's way too big, and it has to be broken down if you're going to give it to a cat, versus, you know, the the way that it was originally made for dogs. So it's, yeah, it is. It is one of those things that, I mean, I think that the world, is it? We're growing right? More and more cat parents are coming out of the closet. More and more cat parents are are asking and saying, hey, I want more information about my cats too. Versus, you know, when we first started in this field back in 2005 you couldn't I mean, nobody was talking about cats. Nobody was talking about cats. Specifically, they were, you know, it was only in the in the pet nutrition field, in our world, at least, it was only dogs that you would ever hear about. And if they said pets, then they meant dogs. And, you know, pet grooming salons, right? You see pet grooming salons, and you're like, Oh,
Dr. Judy Morgan
you never see one labeled cat grooming salon. No, you don't very few. We did a little experiment. You do see a lot of, like, those mobile groomers. They're like, cat and dog groomers, if you call them, they're like, Oh, we actually don't do cats. It's on your name.
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies 3:58
But it is. You're right. You know, to that point, it's, it's, there's so much, especially embedded in the veterinary world, like you have been such an advocate, I think, for multi species. Don't forget the donkeys either, right? But it's when you're looking for those resources. Especially when we started about nine years ago with being the two crazy cat ladies, we were desperate to find resources. And I remember the big, bright, shining light of Dr Lisa Pearson that we found at that time with catinfo.org so much information was like, Oh my gosh, this is almost overwhelming, just on the nutrition like dubbing,
Dr. Judy Morgan
yeah, but great, great, great website. I actually refer to that website still quite often. So why do you think we don't give as much attention to Cat health as we do to dog health?
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies 4:48
You know, I think, I think a lot of it has to do with the cats being misunderstood in many, in many ways. And I also think it's um. The lack of cat parents that were seeking the information, right? So when we started our company, we also started a supplement company, and we quickly realized we came from a supplement company and a pet supplement company, and we quickly realized that there's not a lot of demand in the world of pet health for cats, right? Like, oh, we're going to be broke forever, okay?
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies 5:25
Versus what it was in the in the dog health community. So I feel like there's, there's this overall awareness that is starting to just bloom. Now it's starting to, you can see it more and more with pet food companies, you know, now, good, healthy, raw pet food companies coming out with cat formulas as well before,
Dr. Judy Morgan
That has taken a long time. There we had one good one, and FDA was mean, and it disappeared. Um, yeah, that was bad. But you know, it's, it's taken a long time to now have companies formulating for the cats as well as the dogs, because, let's face it, bad diet is probably at the top of the list of problems for cats.
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies
Yep, absolutely. And I don't think people realize how much that can actually impact behavior. Right to Jae's point about why is it that there's this kind of lack of for cats? And I do think part of it is the fact that cats are so stoic, they're not as expressive as dogs. They don't remind you they have to go for a walk every day. You know, the litter box. You can just kind of scoop it. You're not necessarily paying attention there. But there's also that on the flip side, it's like, and we've talked to so many people that are like, I'd really love to get a dog one day, but I think I'm gonna start with a cat, like, as a practice companion animal. They're easier, right? They're just easier. Cats are so easy. And I think part of that is that we're just not, you know, I said it before, like, if I were to get an African parrot, I would be getting the book on, what do these parrots eat? How do they sleep? What are their what is their rhythm like? What kind of behaviors do they have? How do they express themselves? And I think we kind of grew up with that mentality of cats and dogs are household pets, and not really understanding what a different species they are, completely different. And so when right, and when you talk about even the diet being kind of at the top of the list, it's so true, because cats are different than dogs. Dogs and that they are obligate carnivores, they do have a much more specific biological requirement for their nutrients. And when you kind of, we know this for a fact, when we eat a bunch of crap, we're irritable, we feel bloated, we're, you know, like it even affects their behavior to a certain degree, yeah,
Dr. Judy Morgan 7:42
well, and, I mean, it's, it's going to affect bad behaviors, like, well, let's see. I've got a bunch of crystals in my urine. It hurts to pee in the letterbox. I think I'll go pee over here.
Dr. Judy Morgan 7:52
Yeah. I mean, there's just so many things that are impacted by that. And unfortunately, we just somewhere. First of all, nobody understood what cats were supposed to be eating, or if they did, they didn't care. It was both because we I mean, look back, I started practice in the late 1980s and that was when we were seeing a whole bunch of cats with taurine deficiencies. So we were getting blindness, and we were getting heart failure, and because we took an obligate carnivore, and it's like, oh, here have your corn and, oh, we have to add taurine to that. Imagine that, right? You know? But that's how we that's how we learned that cats were different. It's like, oh, we fed them the same thing we were feeding dogs didn't work,
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies
right? Exactly. Yeah, they're definitely, they're definitely different, and they're different in the in terms of what they need. And, you know, like Adrienne said, everybody thought, everybody used to think, at least maybe they still do. Many still do think that cats are just easy animals because they're aloof and because they, you know, just lay around all day and they don't really need anything, but there are actually for enrichment. There's so much that our cats do actually need. I would venture to say that cats are more complicated than dogs when you if in a lot of ways, when you have them as pets, one that feeding process, right? Like, it's much easier to feed your dog once you know better than doing better is a lot easier, a lot easier to transition to a healthier diet. Yeah, for the most part, every you know, every every animal is an individual, but for the most part, cats that doing better is they give some pushback. It's a bit. It's harder to negotiate. Yeah, it's a bit. There are cats on a better diet. It's a bit harder to tell our cats to, all of a sudden, switch a routine where they're just sleeping on the couch every day to hey, maybe we get up and go play. Hey, maybe we start going outside for a walk, and maybe we do some other things when they're just used to being stuck in our four walls, laying on the couch, doing nothing and not having any type of enrichment. And we learn better, then we have to, you know, we have to take those steps. And they're a little bit more complicated when it comes to our kitties.
Dr. Judy Morgan 10:22
They are, I agree. You know, a dog, they're, I mean, they're pretty happy to lay around all day, but they do want some interaction, and they're kind of obnoxious. If they don't get it, cats will lay around all day and be miserable, and they just, they just don't tell us, and sometimes they tell us in bad ways, but it's it's really interesting because I I never had a cat until after I graduated from vet school. My dad didn't like cats, my grandfather didn't like cats. So I never had a cat, and I always wanted a cat. So a Little kitten came in the office that had been attacked by a dog had broken legs. I put little casts on his little six week old legs and took him home and said, Now I have a cat.
Dr. Judy Morgan 11:09
What do I do with a cat?
Dr. Judy Morgan 11:13
And they've taught me a lot over the years. And you know, I have to say I am one of those lucky people who have, I have a incredible environment for my my outdoor kitties that run and jump and hunt and play. And I think that anybody who's a cat owner should spend time watching a cat live that kind of cat life and see what they do. It's nothing like what they do laying on your sofa,
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies 11:42
see what they're capable of. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, one of the great behaviors that we work with with one of our boys who is now passed our Pooh Bear, Dr Marcy Koski, she was helping us with some behavioral problems, and he was a bigger boy, and she was like, you know, play really mitigates any number of behavioral issues. And we were like, Oh, girl, we have tried for years to get this baby to play. We have tried forever. And she explained to us what a confidence building session, which is basically that one on one time. And it was fascinating. It takes, like cats who get used to a certain routine a certain way of life. Sometimes it takes them a minute to feel comfortable when they are offered something that really embraces their instincts, watching Pooh Bear over time, taking the time to bring him through the confidence building sessions, which is basically like 20 minutes alone, no other cats, so no one else is interacting, no TVs, no phones computers, and really bringing him through the preset sequence with a wand tool and letting him, like, stalk it, like, watch it, stalk it, chase it, all of that. It was fascinating to see how he really just
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies 12:52
came out of his shell. up with his chest just puffed out. It was amazing, and he was far more playful. So giving cats that opportunity, it's not just that we offer our cats a new food once, or we offer our cats some fun cat tree or a scratcher or a new toy or something like that. Sometimes, if it's new for them, it takes that consistency to let them know, Hey, it's okay to be you. Let's see what you got in there, you know, like, really bring them out of their shell. So I do think that what you said, giving cat all cat parents a chance to watch what a cat is capable of in a more natural environment makes you realize just how much they're kind of, how much enrichment you can add on the inside too, maybe that they're more suppressed than they are aloof.
Dr. Judy Morgan 13:38
That could very well be it. We're going to take a break to hear from our sponsors, and we'll talk about more of that when we come back.
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Dr. Judy Morgan 15:57
welcome back. You're listening to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. I'm your host, Dr Judy Morgan, and my guests today are Jae Kennedy and Adrienne Lefebvre from the Two Crazy Cat Ladies. And so we are talking about cats being second class citizens in the pet world, and I really do think they are, because it's really it's really interesting anytime I go looking for studies on cat stuff.
Dr. Judy Morgan 16:22
There's so few, like, I look for, like, a lot of times we will, we're looking for studies on things, and we'll look at human studies, like, if I'm looking for a medicine study, or you will look at human studies, and then we'll find a bunch of dog studies, and then we'll find a bunch of rat studies, but we don't find cat studies,
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies
yeah, yeah, because they're hard, they're, yeah, they're, they're hard to they're harder to study. Is what you know, is basically what we've been told, at least, is that they're, they're much harder to study. I don't know necessarily why in every sense. I mean, I really don't know why in every sense that they would be more difficult to study than dogs. Obviously, you see why they'd be more difficult to study than rats in a, you know, in a caged environment, but, but they, yeah, it's,
Dr. Judy Morgan 17:15
they're just, I don't see as many like specialists that are cat specialists. Like, I've met a couple of veterinarians that had cat clinics, cat specific clinics, and they're like, all in on cats, but there aren't that many of them. Like, I don't know what the the numbers are for the AAFP, the American Association of Feline Practitioners. I don't know what the numbers are, but I don't I can't imagine that. It's huge. And I just wonder, how many of them only do cats, or they're in that as well as canine stuff?
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies
Yeah, well, we have, we've since we've been in Las Vegas, we've had two feline specific veterinarians. one is retired, and now we have a and now we have a new one and they are all in for only cats, only cats. And everything about that environment is different, right? It's, it's a, yeah, about a clinic, yeah, but I do think that cats, you know, they kind of have that reputation. We have been to so many vets where you can actually tell they are scared of cats, yeah, especially when the cat is scared. And that is a really interesting dynamic to see. So I think, you know, these cats, these beautiful little fluff balls, they can be so beautiful, but they and and amazing, and dogs can be dangerous too, right? But I think cats, when they're scared, it is a little more difficult for a person to read that, especially if they're feeling and why is that? Why do you think that is Dr Judy, why do you think that cat, like so many people, are actually scared of cats, like we have had people that are like, I'm gonna come in your house because I don't like cats.
Dr. Judy Morgan
We hired a technician who was afraid of cats. She had been attacked by one when she was a child. And I can tell you that two of my worst incidents in practice were with cats.
Dr. Judy Morgan 19:07
One we had, we this cat was a long haired cat came in all matted because, you know, he wouldn't let everybody brush him like he should, and eating the wrong diet. You know, everything wrong. But anyway, cat needed to be shaved. And we had shaved this cat many times before, and he was really chill. And so I had the cat, and I started to shave him, and he lost his marbles, and I probably had 20 bite wounds. He literally, like, latched in with nails and teeth, and then I would literally, like, pry his nails out, and then he would grab with another one, and we'd get those out, and he'd grab he grabbed with the teeth. I mean, I looked like Swiss cheese. And he had never acted like that in the past. I don't know why he flipped his gourd at that point, but you know when a cat decides they're suddenly going rogue. I had another one climb up me like I was a tree trunk. He was a feral cat. So that that did that didn't shock me, because it was a feral cat and it climbed me like a teacher tree trunk. And, you know, piercings everywhere.
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies
Yeah, it's actually a normal thing in our house, yeah.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Well, yes, we get the climbing and the piercings. But, you know, there's a difference between an aggressive piercing. And I just want to climb up you
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies 20:21
that cliche of, you know, they they're acting like a cornered cat. You know, that survive that fight or flight for cats is a we could our Annie Bell, who's here, and our Blueberry had a serious fight. little bit too. It's like, man, they've got some wild cat in them. Yeah? It's just, wow. This is not a domestic animal at all. So I do think that there is something to be said about the that, that saying, you know, yeah,
Dr. Judy Morgan
well, and I think in veterinary clinics, we're a little off topic. But in veterinary clinics, if you don't have a cat specific person, like I had a technician who you guys would love her. She would love you. She was crazy cat person. She designed diets for cats. She was just so into she had a bunch of cats, and she was the cat whisperer. So if we had a crazy cat come in, it's like, Carly, I need you to the crazy cat's in that room. I need you to go, you know, do your cat whispering thing, and she could handle any cat, and not with brutacane, it was just, you know, it all ended up being very calm. And a lot of times they were in a burrito, which, you know, made the cat feel fine, because it was like, Okay, I'm just gonna hide in here. But she was just so good with them. And I think that that is one of the problems in veterinary medicine, like, if you have a clinic that are mostly dog people, and you're bringing in your cat into that clinic, yeah, it could be very difficult for the cat you can
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies
Yeah, that is, that is, that is one of the main reasons why we, if at all possible, pick a feline specific, even if they are not holistic, which none of them in Vegas have been is that, you know, we've got our holistic veterinarian and then we've got our feline specific veterinarian, so that we have, you know, a safe place where we know we can consult with either one of them.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Well, yeah, I mean, it's not even just the veterinarians and staff, but if you're in the waiting room and your cat's in the carrier, and there's a big barking dog sitting across from them, or, you know, the dog on the eight foot leash that runs across the waiting room to stick his face in your dog's carrier. It's or your cat's carrier is so much fun.
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies 22:35
Yes, it is. It's a thing. I was just thinking, though, circle back on the science. Though, like you said, it's kind of like Christmas when you actually find a study, a real study, cats and and I think it's so important for cat parents, like, there was a study that we read up, I think it's peer reviewed, reviewed science. They were testing vegan diets with cats, and it was fascinating. That was recent, yes, so it's, it's put out there in these journals. It's called a peer review study. There was all this. A lot of it is, it's self reporting, right? So it's not that these cats are they know that in a controlled environment, this is what's going on, whatever. But it was so a lot of self reporting, and then the conclusions were all these amazing benefits for a vegan diet. And I think it's one of these things where it's so important, it wasn't really, if you read, if you read the study, it was all the way through the headlines that covered it, all the headlines that covered it were, this could be great, but when you actually read the study, it showed it basically said, there's no proof that this would be beneficial to cats. If you read through the fine print.
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies 23:38
but skimming the well, without the article. It's like,
Dr. Judy Morgan
Yeah, I mean, and that happens so often, and things get quoted as the gospel when it's like, that's not really what it said, yeah, right, yeah. But, well, I'm just going to go on the record and say no vegan diets for cats.
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies
Thank you. Yes, yes. Again, obligate carnivores. But you know, also brings us back to our pet stores, which is funny, because it was a pet store owner was the first person back in 2015, 2016, I think that that said the words to us, cats are second class citizens, and people don't so. And they were like, That's why I don't have a big section of cat
Dr. Judy Morgan
pet stores do not exactly. I used to go in the pet stores to get things for my dogs, and I'm like, Well, let me go see what's in the cat section. And the cat section would be like, two little, tiny, half shelves, like, of nothing,
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies
Yep, yeah, like toys or something. So is it supply and demand? And is that not just products, but information? I think is supply or demand? No, it's demand and then supply, I think that it's really
Dr. Judy Morgan
Yeah, because I can tell you that we expanded our cat department at Naturally Healthy Pets and stuff languishes, yeah, yeah, languishes and so we were like, okay. We're like, you know, we need to, we need to be more there, more present for Cat people, yeah, but people, you're right. People don't use as many supplements for cats because it's harder to get them in them. It's hard to get cats to adapt to any change. I will say that catnip toys do well. Cats do like catnip.
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies 25:14
But I think what you do is so invaluable, because I think you know that information I know from personal experience. As far as 2nd class citizens go, it's because we didn't really know better, right? We have, we've really been investing our life into learning as much as we can. So I think part of it is just that we don't know that we can be proactive about these things. We always hear those sad stories of I had no idea, and I just had to put my cat down. I didn't even know they were sick, right? And it's with kidney disease or diabetes or something like that,
Dr. Judy Morgan
well, and that is another cat issue. Cats hide symptoms, And cats, you know, don't like to get in the box and go to the veterinarian, so they don't get their annual lab work and their annual exams, and then they hide their symptoms. And people are like, well, I don't need to take them to the vet. He seems perfectly healthy to me. Yeah. Perfectly healthy to me, and by the time he does start showing symptoms, it's like, oh, could have used that information about a year ago.
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies
Yep, yeah. That's, I mean, we and it's, you know, it's, I get that. You can't just be like, okay, all cat parents, you need to get all of your cats into the vet at least once a year. And, you know, get a blood panel. We say it all the time, and we do it ourselves, but it is hard, even for us, with five cats, making the different appointments, not, you know, dragging them all in at one time. We've tried that. It's not the best idea, you know, like, and then, and then the stress that it puts them through when they're not normally, you know, going to the vet on a regular basis. It's, you know, it's, it's a, it's a difficult thing.
Dr. Judy Morgan 26:51
It is, it is. So I think, I think they get ignored, because they allow themselves to be ignored as part of it, they're like, Yeah, that's fine. I'm good, I'm good. Except they're really not, and they really like the enrichment, like you were talking about with Pooh Bear. I think that is, that is so cool. We'll have to do another session on that.
Dr. Judy Morgan 27:09
It is, it is very cool when you see what a natural cat in a natural habitat does, and then you look at your indoor cat and go, Oh, yeah, that's not what you do, yeah? And so we, we really thwart their efforts to be natural cats. And I think, you know, I appreciate what you guys do, because you are trying to get people to see through that and see that it's they're not just this solitary lump on the pillow, yeah? Like, they're, they're so much better as a pet when you interact with them and do things with them. My my granddaughter, my three year old granddaughter, tortures their cat, Edward, carries him around and dresses him up and, you know, and Edward is just like, oh, good a friend. He's just amazing.
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies 27:58
Yeah? I mean, it's Yeah, they really are pets. They're not accessories. They are they are pets and so, and that's what, you know, that's really what our whole vision is, is to try to let people know, for the there's more cats that are owned in the US than there are dogs. So let's let all the cat people know it's okay to see them as your pet. Let's start taking care of them as their as your pet.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So diet, entertainment, emotional support, all that stuff for your kitty cats. Really, really, really critical. I love everything that you do. I love that we have a voice for the cats, because they have not had one for a very long time. So thank you both. I can't believe we're out of time. Time always goes so fast when we talk, but thank you, and keep doing what you're doing. And for those who are listening, we do have an offer. Feline Essential by the two crazy cat ladies. 10% off using the code DRMORGAN, we will put the link in the show notes, and you can find them all their different social media tags are pretty much the two crazy cat ladies. So look them up. You won't be disappointed.
The Two Crazy Cat Ladies
Thank you Dr. Judy
Outro
Thanks for listening to another great Naturally Healthy Pets episode. Be sure to check out the show notes for some helpful links. And if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. We value your feedback and we'd love to hear from you on how we're doing. Visit DrJudyMorgan.com for healthy product recommendations, comprehensive courses, upcoming events and other fantastic resources. Until next time, keep giving your pet the vibrant life they deserve.
DISCLAIMER
The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Dr. Judy and her guests express their own views, experience and conclusions. Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets neither endorses or opposes any particular view discussed here.