Intro 0:00
Welcome to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. Let's get to it.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Hello and welcome to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. I'm your host, Dr Judy Morgan, and my guest today is Greg Perkins, and we are going to talk about the importance of single ingredient, organ based treats. And anybody who knows me knows that I'm just a huge fan, but today we're going to talk more about why and what those treats are providing. So Greg Perkins is the National Sales Manager and Co Owner of Packer Mellem Sales and Co-Owner of Momentum Carnivore Nutrition. Greg has been in the independent pet industry for 27 years. He owned two full line pet stores outside of Atlanta for nine years. You're a brave man before working with a regional distributor in the South. He also worked for two pet food companies before joining Packer Mellum Eight years ago. So he's got tons of insider information. Two years ago, Greg became co owner of Momentum Carnivore Nutrition, and just had a successful relaunching of the brand last year in 2023
Dr. Judy Morgan 1:07
he's very passionate about animal welfare and pet nutrition. Greg, thank you for being my guest today.
Greg Perkins
Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here.
Dr. Judy Morgan 1:17
So from for me, from a Chinese medicine standpoint, and actually from a homeopathic standpoint as well. We know that like treats like so I've just been this huge fan ever since I got into the food therapy and nutrition side of pet care, that if we've got an animal with heart disease, we want to feed them some heart if we've got an animal with liver disease, we want to get some clean liver in there. And that's the trickiest one.
Dr. Judy Morgan 1:47
But give us example definition of and examples of different organ meats, because I think that most people think of heart and liver, but there's just so many more things that we could be looking at,
Greg Perkins 2:02
yeah, for sure. It, you know, they're often sometimes referred to as glandulars. And when you when you look at traditional organ meats, you think of the liver for sure. I think that's the most commonly available and used. Heart is one that you mentioned. Kidney is another one that is mentioned that we use and and tripe as well. Now it's not necessarily an organ, but it's, it's the internal lining of the stomach and so forth, which is obviously has similar benefits that you would find in some of the organ meats as well. And some use the we use even duck necks that are ground, ground down, to be able to get that good glucosamine and chondroitin and so forth. So there's, there's spleen, there's, there's so many of them. Brain is, brain is a is actually a very healthy organ meat, but it's not something that's readily available for us, for pets.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Yeah, I have a question about that is, is, are we allowed to feed brain to our pets? Do we have to worry about things like BSE, or, you know, the prion diseases and those sorts of things? Is that? Is that an issue for our pets if we're feeding them brain?
Greg Perkins 3:14
Well, I don't know. We're not allowed. And so it kind of takes it off the market, and so because of that reason, I don't, we don't focus on it much and learn why. You know, it may be change over time. Because, you know, before kind of feeding organ meat was kind of like, you know, people just think that's disgusting, that's gross. Why would you feed organ meat? So, you know, we've come a long way with the help, the inclusion of raw feeding and stuff like that. So maybe that will come into the future. But I just honestly don't know the risk possibilities. I just know that in other countries, it's used, and people eat it themselves and enjoy it and get the benefits of it. So I'm sure it can be done.
Dr. Judy Morgan
This is True. That is true. They do eat it. People do eat it in other countries. Here in the US, we kind of go blah there whenever we talk about any organ meats.
Greg Perkins 4:09
You know, it's interesting. One of the few times I ever hear about it in the US is from hunters that sometimes say that they'll eat the brain. You know, I would think that you would have to have some precautions and be careful with that, you know, yeah, just to make sure it's processed.
Dr. Judy Morgan 4:26
yeah, interesting. And I don't even, I'm not a hunter, and I don't know how you would test or know, so, yeah, okay, so, yeah. So I think that we don't feed brains, but I can say, like, if my cats hunt something, they'll eat the whole animal. So they are getting the benefit of the brains, and, you know, all the all the glandulars.
Dr. Judy Morgan 4:49
So let's What do you think is the best organ? Like, if you had to pick one, if, if you had a squeamish owner who was like, what would what would be your number one choice?
Greg Perkins 5:00
I Like to go with the heart.
Greg Perkins 5:02
You know, it's, it provides, you know, the CO Q 10, which is excellent for the, you know, the heart itself, but the the stressful oxidation. So I think it does wonders for the health. You know, you're only as good as your heart is, and and so, like you said, like feeds like, you know, for for any of those patients or dogs out there, cats out there, that would like to make a give them a healthier heart, but it's also, it seems to be one of the favorites of dogs and cats, you know, you just it's always been one of our best sellers, and I think that's the case for anybody that sells either raw or freeze dried
Greg Perkins 5:46
heart meat and so forth. Dogs just and cats can't resist it. In fact, we just for years. Judy, you know, we just focused on on dog. And we all know in their inner circle that if it's a single ingredient and it's healthy, it's actually good for the cats, they probably need it just as much if not more.
Dr. Judy Morgan 6:07
I have a bag of if I have a bag of freeze dried hearts in my cabinet or sitting on my counter, my cats break into them every time they love them. So for those of you with kitty cats, if you're not feeding freeze dried hearts, get some, because they cannot resist. My daughter actually taught her cat to do a lot of different tricks, and we think that we that cats are not trainable. Oh, no. You give them a freeze dried heart, you can get them to do just about anything
Dr. Judy Morgan 6:36
And one of my dogs, one of my dogs, absolutely will not eat unless there are pieces of heart on his platter next to his food. That's how we jump start him to eat every meal. And we have been going to the butcher and saying, Can you just order us cases of chicken hearts or turkey hearts? Because if I run out, he just he won't eat. I cannot get the dog to eat without his heart. So he has trained us very well. So I agree with you. I think heart is really amazing, and heart counts as a muscle meat. So if you're making their food, you can grind up hearts or use them in place. So instead of having to go buy really expensive, 93% lean beef. You can just buy hearts, which our hearts were really inexpensive. They're, I don't know @2.99 a pound at the grocery store, but I can get them other places at an even lower price. So I think they're a great addition. So I agree with you on that. So what would we use? I mean, liver is in almost all pet foods,
Dr. Judy Morgan 7:49
even the low end pet foods, liver is used is usually labeled as a byproduct, but I know in the upper end foods, it's always listed as a single ingredient. So why do you think everyone is so hot on liver?
Greg Perkins 8:05
Well, I think one, it's readily available. I think two, the price is pretty good. It's easy to come by, and it's not too expensive. So I think that's why the mass use it.
Greg Perkins 8:19
But it had a bad reputation for a while. You know, people were really worried that their if their pet ate it, that they were going to be in taking these toxins, when, in fact, yes, it does. It does take in and filter the toxins in the body, but it transforms those fat soluble toxins into liquid sock, which will release into the urine or to the colon so forth. So it's not present when you're feeding it to your pet. It just, you just get the benefits out of it. And it's kind of funny. It's been called the nature's multivitamin,
Greg Perkins 8:53
you know, and it's a great term for it. You see a lot of trainers using freeze dried liver. It's very palatable. Um, it certainly gets the pets attention, and it's kind of funny. Judy, I was in an event that we would set up, and there was a team that did trainings on a table and did a big booth, and they all came by to buy hearts and liver from us, and they said, we train so much that we need something to really get their attention, because they've seen just about everything, and liver and hearts are what we typically turn to.
Dr. Judy Morgan 9:27
So awesome. Yeah, I used I think I used Freeze, freeze dried hearts when I took my puppy. Well, the one puppy that that's the only thing he likes is hearts. So that was what he was using for training. I think our other guy, we might have used the liver. Used the liver, but so we don't as commonly look at feeding lungs or pancreas. We do, we do see freeze dried tripe a lot, and I, I like that, particularly for our animals who have some GI issues. Because, again, like feeds like and that's the. Stomach.
Dr. Judy Morgan 10:01
What about spleen?
Greg Perkins 10:05
Yeah, I think spleens is an excellent source. We don't do it ourselves again, so we, we don't train a lot and talk about the spleen, just because it's not something that we dig into much. It is something that I would be able to like to offer again, because, you know, there's from organ to organ, they do a lot of things similar, like they're going to have behind omegas, the good omegas, the odd omegas, and so forth, to help balance that out. So forth. They're going to have a lot of different minerals and so forth. So there is some crossovers, but there are some things, like manganese that you will find in an organ meat, like spleen and so forth, that you won't find in other places unless they're literally a prey and on an animal that they're with the feathers and the wool and the and the hair and so forth. So I think it's an excellent choice. But you know, one of the things I just wanted to go back to real quick was so many people using liver or whatever the case may be in tripe as well. I think the quality of it and how it's processed is a big important part too. Because if you put it into something where you're going to raise the temperature to a certain level, are you really getting the benefit of the
Greg Perkins 11:17
liver or whatever the case may be.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Well, certainly with the tripe, if you're cooking the tripe, you are losing a lot of that probiotic enzyme, you know, the natural probiotics and enzymes that are in the green tripe. And so that's what a lot of times, when I tell people that I want them to add tripe to the meal, they go to the grocery store and they see this bleached white, dead nothing. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the really rich, green, stinky, stinky, stinky stuff, because that's where all the good stuff is.
Greg Perkins 11:54
Yes, I didn't realize this Judy until I came home with Momentum and we started talking to suppliers and so forth about processing our tripe,
Greg Perkins 12:04
and it was important for us to do it in a USDA facility, which they don't recognize as something that is edible, so they typically like to mark it if it's raw. If it's not raw, they won't mark it. Usually that's done with a
Greg Perkins 12:21
can it can be with just a small little bit of a dye, an edible dye, or something like that, or whatever, charcoal, sometimes something like that.
Greg Perkins 12:28
But the majority of what is in the human and in the pet world is bleached or scorched tripe, and you're losing the benefit. And that's just something that's like, Why Why sell it if you're not actually getting the benefit from it. So,
Dr. Judy Morgan
yeah, I don't know too many people who want to eat it, but I do see it in the grocery store. We need to take a break to hear from our sponsor. We'll be back with you in just a few moments.
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PRODUCT SPOTLIGHT: TCVM FOOD THERAPY 101
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Dr. Judy Morgan
Welcome back. You're listening to Dr Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets. I'm your host. Dr Judy Morgan and my guest today is Greg Perkins, who's the national sales manager and co owner of Packer Mellum Sales and co owner of Momentum Carnivore Nutrition. So we've been discussing the importance and benefits of organ meats, and one of the really interesting organs that people don't feed very often. But I love it, because it can be a natural treatment for a few things, but that's pancreas. It's a natural source of those pancreatic enzymes, and for these animals who are having digestive problems or have allergies or have pancreatic insufficiency, I would much rather go to a nice natural like, give me some good fresh pancreas that I can add into that bowl. I would much rather treat it that way than have some sort of a process, highly processed or synthetic enzyme. What do you think?
Greg Perkins 15:00
I agree. I think that anytime that you can get something natural in its natural state is less processed as possible, that's the way to go.
Greg Perkins 15:11
You know, that's, that's kind of what turned me on to this to begin with, is when I saw single ingredient, organ meat in a package. I was a fan as a customer, and I thought I knew the benefits that this, you know, could could be for my own pets.
Greg Perkins 15:26
And you know, in today's pet market, they are just eating so much commercial food that is overly processed that they're just not getting the some of the most beneficial things that aren't being offered like you, like you talk about like if you look at animals in the prey, because that's what we really learn from is what they do in their natural environment. The first thing that the animal goes for is the organ meat, because that's the most nutrient dense. And often these animals in the wild will tell us exactly what our pets need. We just need to get it to them in the right format,
Dr. Judy Morgan
yeah, and I think that's where we oftentimes make mistakes for for raw feeders, or people that are feeding gently cooked we, we we look at things like hair and bones, and, you know, some of The things that we would go like stomach contents. We look at it and say, Ooh, you know, why would we want to feed that? But like you said, the the hair of the animal, or the feathers of the animal that they would eat in the wild, that's where a lot of these trace minerals are coming from, manganese and zinc. There are a few pet food companies like, I just ordered some whole ground quail because, and I love to just rotate that into my pets diets once in a while, because I'm like, that's that's how you would eat it if you were to go out and catch a quail. And I think that that's why we end up seeing all these vitamins and mineral supplements getting added to food, because we are leaving out the natural sources of those. And, yeah, I, I just know that for pet owners, particularly those who are new to feeding anything other than something out of a bag, you know, a dry kibble bag, it's they get really skeeved out my, my third book that I wrote was Canine Kitchen Capers, and one woman wrote a story in there about putting on, like, three plastic aprons and three pairs of plastic gloves to handle the liver because she's a vegetarian, and she's like, I'm just not touching this stuff.
Greg Perkins 17:37
You know? It's funny, Judy, I've been a raw feeder for years, and I would just have this conversation yesterday where a customer was talking about the raw that they were feeding, but they didn't want to touch it, and they liked the plastic wraps and so forth. And I said, Well, I said, you know, the things that bother me when I touch it is actually the hamburger meat and the chicken that I buy from the grocery store. You know, you can't get that off your hands, you know, and wash them enough. So it's, it's, it's just getting the concept out there. And I think freeze dried sometimes is an easier method for some people to be able to deal with and go for sure.
Dr. Judy Morgan
So what you have something in the show notes here, what is the thermal effect of food? And why should we care?
Greg Perkins
It's really interesting. Well, you know, we should care because, you know, I don't know the exact stats now, Judy, it changes from year to year, but as you and I both know the majority of dogs, over 50% of dogs and cats are overweight, and a certain percentage of those are obese. And that's not changing a whole lot. It's been happening since, you know, I was having stores back in the late 90s and so forth all the way to today.
Greg Perkins 18:49
It's also one of those situations which I'm sure you're aware as a vet, that it's a very sensitive topic for owners. They don't want their dogs to be called fat or their cats, so but it is an important topic because it is a health concern. And so when we think about treats, we think about something as a reward or an extra like they should have gotten all their nutritional benefits before, what they need for the day. And often that's not the case. They didn't get that because they've been underfed nutrition through processed food, but we certainly don't want to give them a treat that has loaded with sugar and carbs and so forth. That's going to add pounds and it's not going to do anything for them. It's going to be difficult for them to break down. So when you look at thermogenesis, which is just a word, basically, for the science of studying how the metabolic system works, and how metabolism works, and how the energy you can speed up the energy to actually burn through calories. You can do that they look at the science of it through age and sleep and exercise and all that kind of stuff. But diet induced thermogenesis has to do with the thermal effect.
Greg Perkins 20:00
Of food, and it depends on the type of foods that you're feeding. So if you're feeding a very high quality meat, low carb or zero carb, then you're going to raise that rate quite a bit. With the fat you will you will raise it about zero to 5% at most, with a carb, you'll raise it about five to 10% and with a quality protein, like an organ meat, muscle meat that you're talking about earlier, you're going to raise that as much as 20 to 30% so you can be providing your dog and cat with a treat that actually gives them some nutrients and vitamins and minerals that they're not getting from their commercial diet, but at the same time not adding to the problem of weight, maybe even contributing to them to be able to get lose some weight and get more lean muscle.
Dr. Judy Morgan 20:51
Yeah. I mean, that's a really You brought up a couple really important points, but I used to get really frustrated with people who would complain, I just can't get my dog to lose weight. And I see it on social media all the time. All the time. I can't get my pet to lose weight. My veterinarian told me to just cut back the amount of kibble I'm putting in the bowl by about 25%
Dr. Judy Morgan 21:11
we we know now, thanks to work done by Steve Brown and Karen Becker, that and Susan Thixton, that when we do that, we are not providing all the nutrients that our pets need because the pet food is formulated for an adult active dog. Well, first of all, there aren't that very there aren't very many active adult dogs. Most of them are sedentary. Most of them lay around the house most of the time. And so if we feed according to the label directions we are feeding for that active dog, and that's what it is. The nutrients are formulated for being fed at that level, for the weight of dog on the label. So when we say, Oh, well, we'll just cut it back by 25% Well, we now also cut back all their vitamins, all their minerals. Yes, we cut back calories, but we cut back nutrients. And so I would get really upset with people, though I still do get upset when I see that, because that is the wrong way. First of all, they're not going to lose weight. All you're going to do is slow down their metabolism even more, because you're giving them less calories to process. But what I saw in practice was every time I took one of those animals on a high starch diet and moved them over to a very low starch diet and increase their protein levels, they lose weight without trying. We don't have to cut back on the amount. They're not starving all the time. It's it's a very, very easy way for our pets to lose the weight, particularly with the cats. Cats are not supposed to be carb eaters. They are obligate carnivores. When we feed them meat, they stay nice and lean, and particularly if they're getting activity. The biggest problem with our cats is that they really get no activity because nobody entertains them.
Dr. Judy Morgan 22:57
So yeah, I totally agree, and so I like putting it from a scientific standpoint of thermogenesis, yeah, here's why it works, but from a practical standpoint, yep, saw it every day in practice. I mean, it just, it's, it's very frustrating.
Dr. Judy Morgan 23:15
It is possible to keep your dog obese on a raw fed diet. I have a Cocker who just, I can't he, he's lost a little bit, but, man, oh, he came to me obese, and he, he's just, he's not active enough anyway.
Dr. Judy Morgan 23:32
So what are some of the bad things that you see in in treats? And, I mean, I'm a huge fan, and it doesn't even have to. I love the single ingredient, because we can focus on something that we want to be helping. But there are also what we call functional treats out there now where you might add in things that are good for heart health. So you might have three or four ingredients. We have our Constitutions Toppers, where we add in from a TCVM standpoint, and then I know Momentum has their functional treats for GI and immune system and that sort of thing. But what are the bad things like? If somebody is like, oh geez, I've got to go out and look for better treats. What are things they should avoid?
Greg Perkins 24:17
Well, I certainly go back to the the high sugar, high salt that's often found in there high starch. You know those, those are three that are so common in there, it's almost hard to find treats that don't have one of those three in them. Um,
Greg Perkins 24:34
because you're just, you're just not helping. You know, you're causing, you're helping cause the problem, instead of helping with the pet in the right direction. So, so those are the first three. You know, like food, there's some that have a lot of preservatives in them and so forth, that I would certainly avoid.
Greg Perkins 24:51
But I would try to keep it simple, you know, something that is maybe a single ingredient. So you know exactly what you're getting. something that is very palatable, because if you do want them to get the benefit from it, it doesn't do any good if they're not going to eat it, you know. So you do want to make it enjoyable.
Greg Perkins 25:14
And with treats, you know, you kind of like to have the right appropriate size and the consistency for the right for the right animal you were, you were talking about the hearts and so forth with the cats, you know, we put our toppers the same hearts through a grinder, so it makes it a little bit simpler to sprinkle along to the food and so forth, so they can enjoy it that way. You know, whether they're raw feeders or kibble feeders or freeze dried feeders, a lot of times they like to have certain shapes or different, you know, formats that they prefer to eat. So so something friendly to the animal, but also healthy, but doesn't have those.
Dr. Judy Morgan
So avoid salt, sugar, dye, preservatives, those are the biggies. And so most of the treats and and those high starches, all those grains and carbs, are just not doing our pets any good, particularly if you're handing out a lot of treats, if you're handing and I see it a lot, where people are so choosy about the food that goes in the bowl, and then they don't pay attention to the treats, and they're like, Oh, look at that. It's got a cute label. It's got a cute you know, makes it sound great. It's not.
Dr. Judy Morgan 26:19
So this is we're out of time.
Greg Perkins 26:25
Well, I've enjoyed it. I really have. And like you mentioned, I like to see them rotate these two organ meats as well, not just the food. They should rotate their supplements and their treats as well.
Dr. Judy Morgan 26:36
Absolutely. So for anyone who wants more information, Momentum Carnivore Nutrition makes these amazing treats. You can go to their website get more information. The website is www.momentumcn.com We'll put that in the show notes. We also carry a lot of Momentum products on our website. And we are, we are fans, for sure, and we really appreciate all the work that you're doing to keep our pets healthy. Thanks a lot, Greg.
Greg Perkins
Thank you very much. Thank you for support.
Outro
Thanks for listening to another great Naturally Healthy Pets episode. Be sure to check out the show notes for some helpful links. And if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. We value your feedback and we'd love to hear from you on how we're doing. Visit DrJudyMorgan.com for healthy product recommendations, comprehensive courses, upcoming events and other fantastic resources. Until next time, keep giving your pet the vibrant life they deserve.
DISCLAIMER
The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Dr. Judy and her guests express their own views, experience and conclusions. Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets neither endorses or opposes any particular view discussed here.