Intro 0:00
Welcome to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. Let's get to it.
Dr. Judy Morgan 0:05
Hello everyone. Welcome to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. I'm your host Dr Judy Morgan, and I'm very excited to have to my get as my guest today. Dr Erin Holder, and the title of this episode is we are not okay. How compassion fatigue is wrecking the veterinary profession. There are a lot of things that are wrecking the veterinary profession, but this is a big part of it, and there's a lot of reasons for it. So after owning an integrated Veterinary Hospital for 18 years, boy, sounds familiar? Dr Erin Holder succumbed to compassion fatigue and burnout and sold her practice. She spent the next few years reflecting on what happened, and out of this reflection came the Veterinary Compassion Fatigue Project, which I'm not familiar with, and I can't wait to hear about it. I think it's amazing. This project is born out of love for the community and for all those that work in the animal care world. So Erin, welcome. Thank you very much for addressing this topic.
Dr Erin Holder
It is my pleasure to be here, and I appreciate so much you allowing me the space to bring this to everyone's attention.
Dr. Judy Morgan
It's huge. You know, on the one hand, I feel like I contribute to some of the veterinary stress that professionals are undergoing, because with a naturally healthy pets platform, I am talking all the time about minimizing the use of drugs, minimizing the use of chemicals, minimizing vaccinations, and getting to a better place of feeding whole food diets, and that goes so against what the veterinary profession is Pushing, what the veterinary professionals are being taught
Dr. Judy Morgan 2:05
And so it becomes a big strain in the exam room when clients who want to follow you know more along what I am promoting, they're standing in the room With the veterinarian who doesn't have an understanding of whole food feeding and minimizing vaccinations, and we can't blame them. They're only doing what they've been taught, but it becomes a real drain for the owners and for the veterinarians, and it causes this friction between the two, and I think that contributes to compassion fatigue.
Dr Erin Holder
I so love that you brought that up and said that because we're taught in veterinary school to really live and exist in our egos, I think in any medical realm, we're living and protecting our egos. And so we have these young veterinarians that are getting out, and they're like, no, no, be quiet, client. Let me talk. I know what I'm talking about. I've got this, and you need to listen to me. And so part of the veterinary compassion fatigue project is bringing all of our beautiful community out of the ego and into the heart. And part of that would be listening and connecting with the client and saying, what do you what do you feel is best for your animal?
Dr Erin Holder 3:28
Because let's face it, 98 not to 99.9% of clients, they actually do know and they feel, and they have intuition, this would be good for my animal. This would not be good for my animal. And so I really love that you brought that up, and I think that you are, right? And there's this huge emerging,
Dr Erin Holder 3:43
which is, it was 20 years ago when I started, I became extremely popular in the small town of of in Central Florida, because people wanted better. They wanted more. So I love that you said that,
Dr. Judy Morgan 3:57
yeah, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a tough line, and you had an integrated Veterinary Hospital, which both of mine were integrated veterinary hospitals. Most of my clients were leaning more toward the holistic side. We had a small percentage who would walk in and say, no, just give me a pill for that. I just want a pill. I don't want to hear about all the other stuff. Those made me a little bit crazy, but you know, it is what it is, the majority of them were really open to both sides. And it's like, okay, right now, we do happen to maybe need an antibiotic, or we do happen to maybe need a little surgery, and so most of them were open to that. So is there a definition for compassion fatigue?
Dr Erin Holder
yeah, so, and there's a lot of controversy behind it I found, which was very exciting for me when I started to research. But compassion itself is feeling the pain of another, but it's acting on that to relieve the suffering.
Dr Erin Holder 5:00
So empathy is just bringing those emotions on, whether it's cognitive empathy, where you're thinking about the emotions, or emotional empathy, where you're feeling those emotions, you take that empathy one step further into compassion, and you act on it. And so the sole purpose of a veterinarian is compassion, right? We are relieving the suffering of our animals and relieving the suffering of our clients because of that. And so for me, compassion fatigue, where the controversy surrounds it, where people are nitpicking and saying it's really empathy fatigue and it's not compassion fatigue. But I actually respectfully disagree, because if compassion is the act of relieving suffering, then compassion fatigue is me saying I'm going to sell my practice and I'm going to walk away right now because I can't do it. Doesn't mean I don't feel pain for those animals. It just means that I cannot do this anymore. And then I think if you stay in the profession and you don't want to be there with compassion fatigue, you're going to end up with empathy fatigue. And that's the worst. That's the end game where you're so numb to it, you just you can't even feel sorry when you walk into a client's room, and you can't connect with those clients and owners and I and that's the scary end game where you're going to have to step back and you're going to have to reconnect and figure things out
Dr. Judy Morgan
exactly, and I can't tell I mean, I love this topic, because really compassion fatigue and then empathy fatigue was a big driver in me retiring. I do miss practice. I really miss surgery,
Dr. Judy Morgan 6:39
but I miss practice. I miss that one on one with my clients and dealing, you know, with my patients,
Dr. Judy Morgan 6:48
but the when I started waking up in the morning and saying, I just don't care, like I just cannot go in and hold one more hand today.
Dr. Judy Morgan 7:01
And it takes a lot, I think, for us to get to that point, for most of us, because we we do go into veterinary medicine, not to make money if you want, if you want to be richer, go be an orthopedic surgeon, do not be a veterinarian. So we go into it because we really care about the animals, and frankly, we have to care about the person on the other end of that leash or the other side of that carrier, because
Dr. Judy Morgan 7:29
that's who we're really talking to and dealing with. So so many people say, Oh, I went into this because I hate people. Well, you can't hate people and be a veterinarian, but you just can't.
Dr Erin Holder 7:41
We're really failing our veterinary students. We're not preparing them for what they're about to face. We're doing a wonderful job in preparing them for Western medicine, and that's great and for emergencies and all that,
Dr Erin Holder 7:57
but we're giving them no business sense. We're giving them no tools to deal with what you're going to have to face in this very unique profession where we are dealing with animals that can't talk. We're dealing with humans that care so deeply for their animals, and we're intentionally ending a life that's a lot like that's incredible amount put on these kids as they get out. And so we're just failing them.
Dr. Judy Morgan
We are. And then put the financial burden of, you know, what they're dealing with, but also the financial burden of the pet owner. And so you end up, you know, when you come out of school and you've got your white coat and you're like, Okay, I'm the doctor, and I know everything, and I had a young doctor in my clinic who berated a client who did not want to go have chemo for their pet with cancer. And one, the client just couldn't afford it. Two, they didn't want to do it. They didn't want to put the animal through it, but they also just could not afford it.
Dr. Judy Morgan 8:59
And it's it's something that we are failing in our teaching of those new graduates like you have to be able to understand all the different parameters for let's say we have a senior citizen with a senior pet, and the pet has trouble getting up and down, and the senior has Trouble with mobility. Well, that's a really bad combination for, you know, a senior, getting those pets in and out of the house, and so euthanasia might come down to maybe. As a veterinarian, you think it's too early that the pet still has quite a bit of time, but you look at the scenario that the pet lives in, and the person who has to care for the pet, and you have to be able to juggle all those things, and it's, it's, it's not easy that that takes
Dr. Judy Morgan 9:48
Those are the kinds of things at the end of the day you can go home and just sit and cry and say, I wish. I wish it could have been different. Yeah, but it isn't. And unfortunately, in practice, you.
Dr. Judy Morgan 10:00
You have to go through 20 to 30 times a day. New Client, new pet. New Client, new pet, new problem.
Dr Erin Holder
Absolutely, it's a very unique profession, and I am sure Dr Judy that you have heard many people when you say, I'm a veterinarian, that they have no concept of what we go through. And they think, Oh, you get to play with animals all day. Oh, my goodness, what a wonderful profession. I wanted to be a veterinarian, and, you know, and I just always kind of giggle about that, because,
Dr Erin Holder 10:32
in general, this project is to bring awareness out there. I think not one more vet is doing a great job, too, and so we're working with them, but we just, we need to know what what this community is faced with. Everyone needs to be understanding of what this community is faced with, and maybe when the client comes in, they can have that understanding and feel a little bit more sympathy.
Dr. Judy Morgan 10:57
Yeah. I mean, I and I will say, there's a lot with social media, there is a lot of vet bashing that goes on.
Dr. Judy Morgan 11:07
And, you know, unfortunately, I get to see a lot of really bad medicine being practiced because people reach out to me all the time with different issues and problems and what's going on
Dr. Judy Morgan 11:26
and that is a problem. The bad medicine that goes on is a problem. And it's really hard for people not it's so easy to bash someone in this day and age, because you're hiding behind a computer, and you know, people are going to read your words and not have to look you in the eye, and so that is a huge driver of the compassion fatigue as well. But unfortunately, there is bad medicine out there, and there are times when
Dr. Judy Morgan 11:59
things do need to be exposed, I think, and that's that's just a driver toward the problem as well.
Dr Erin Holder
I agree. Yeah, for sure.
Dr. Judy Morgan 12:09
Yeah, social media is good and bad. We need to take a break to hear from our sponsor. We'll be back. Stay tuned. We'll be back in just a couple of minutes. I'm going to talk about how corporate medicine is affecting the veterinary community and how that plays into this as well. We'll be right back.
PRODUCT SPOTLIGHT #1 12:25
Do you understand the results of your pet's lab work? Well, Dr Judy Morgan makes it easy with her Understanding Lab Values Simplified course. It will help you figure out the puzzling language of diagnostics when it comes to the results of CBC, chemistry screen, urinalysis and endocrine testing. Plus get your personal pet's lab work reviewed by Dr Judy herself. Podcast listeners get to take advantage of a 15% discount when using the promo code PODCAST46 at checkout on DrJudyU.com
PRODUCT SPOTLIGHT #2 12:59
Here's your chance to try Dr Judy Morgan's Dental Health Formula. Available in a spray or dropper bottle, this is one of Dr Judy's signature products that makes caring for your pet's dental health easier than ever. Made with natural ingredients including deer antler velvet and manuka honey from New Zealand, these powerful drops are great for supporting good dental health, fighting gum disease, reducing plaque and tartar buildup, soothing stomatitis, gingivitis and ulcers, and freshening breath. Do your dog or cat a favor by focusing on their dental health today. Shop at DrJudyMorgan.com and as a thank you to our podcast listeners, Use code PODCAST46 for 10% off.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Welcome back. You're listening to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast, and I'm your host, Dr Judy Morgan, my guest today, Dr Erin Holder, is discussing Compassion Fatigue and how it is wrecking the veterinary profession, and it is a huge problem. You mentioned the not one more vet,
Dr. Judy Morgan 14:03
which was started because of the high suicide rate in the profession. I think our profession has, if not the highest, rate of suicide. It's pretty far up there.
Dr. Erin Holder
One in six veterinarians contemplate suicide.
Dr. Judy Morgan
One in six contemplates it. Horrible. And do you think compassion fatigue is a big driver of that?
Dr. Erin Holder
I do. Yeah, I think compassion, empathy, fatigue are a huge driver of it, not knowing what to do. You know, we're all coming to the world with our traumas. We there's very few people that escape childhood and young adulthood traumas, and so we're coming to this profession where we have a vision of wanting to give back and we want to help, and you know, and the reality of the profession is that we certainly do give back and we certainly do help, but at what toll does it take on ourselves? We're not armed with self care.
Dr. Erin Holder 15:00
Perhaps we haven't healed our Traumas in the past, and now we've got this perfect storm of real pain and suffering in our community.
Dr. Judy Morgan 15:12
Yeah, and this is not just the veterinarians that we're talking about. We're talking about the entire veterinary staff.
Dr. Judy Morgan 15:21
I had a couple of technicians that every time we had to perform a euthanasia, whether, you know, whether it was a financial euthanasia, and, you know, just end of life, things falling apart, you know, even, even when it was exactly the right decision,
Dr. Judy Morgan 15:40
I had a couple of technicians. It just tore them apart, and they would just be toast for a good half hour, where they just needed to go cry, which was better to go cry for a half an hour than to hold it in and let it build up. But this is this is something, and it's not just euthanasia that's the problem, but it's something across the board, for the the entire staff. We all see the emergencies. We all see the crying clients. We all see the financial struggles of people trying to provide care for their pets. So let's talk about how corporate medicine has impacted this. And do you think that this is contributing to more burnout and compassion fatigue, and if so, how or why?
Dr. Erin Holder 16:37
Yeah, so I think that just a quick note is that the average life expense, the life expectancy of a veterinary nurse within the field, is about five years. So we're putting all this money into training these beautiful staff members, and they just can't handle it. So that's adding more stress onto the veterinarians and business owners, because we're constantly turning over our staff and staff was a huge stressor for me. Corporate again, so I like to take a step back from talking about corporate to say that once again, in the veterinary schools, are we talking to the students? Do they know what they want? Do they know the kind of medicine that they want to practice? Because talk about compassion fatigue, but plugging in a vet student or a brand new veterinarian into a job that that's not what they want to do, giving them the tools to be able to recognize that and understand that they have a voice and can it get out of that situation if they knew to instead of just staying in it? And I do think there is a place for corporate medicine, but I think the shift and the crazy takeover has been sad for our profession, the loss of the mom and pop shops.
Dr. Erin Holder 17:53
Corporate medicine is very black and white and and you will follow these rules, and you know as an integrative veterinarian that that's not at all how we practice medicine. Every patient is individual. We address them individually. And this is quite different than what corporate medicine does. And so I think we've had this huge swing towards corporate medicine, in my very humble opinion, due to compassion fatigue, due to veterinarians saying I can't run this business anymore. I can't manage all this. It's too much, and I'm going to just sell it off. And that hopefully I have a very positive outlook on this is that over the next decade, we're going to swing back into balance, because people just don't want to live in that black and white world. They want to live in more of a world where they're in control of it. And part of my teachings and things that I talk about is, once you cross over into this big world, and you know, we are a seven veterinary, 50 staff member practice, once you cross over into that, you're already becoming a corporation. And the way I like to practice, which was very individualized medicine, becomes very exhausting because things change and nothing stays the same, and all your staff members are like, What are you doing? Why does this client get this and that client gets that? And so my advice to integrated veterinarians is to try and stay as smaller, not you don't have to just be a one doctor practice, but stay smaller to be able to maintain that intimacy, because that intimacy is immediately lost in the selling to corporate.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I just, I was so fortunate that my associate stepped up and bought my practices.
Dr. Judy Morgan 19:41
It's very, very difficult there. It's funny. I look back, I graduated in 1986 so 40 years 1984 40 years ago, and at that time, I would say that about a third of my class graduated, and the next week opened their own practice.
Dr. Judy Morgan 20:00
and that never happens.
Dr. Judy Morgan 20:04
And a good percentage of my class mates became practice owners. And now, when you ask the young veterinarians that are coming out, would you want to be a practice owner. It's a huge majority that say no way, no way. They they want to work a 30 to 35 hour week max. They don't want the headaches. They don't want the overhead. I mean, when I bought my first practice, I took out a million dollar loan, and that was, oh gosh, 1994
Dr. Judy Morgan 20:42
and, you know, people don't want to take out a million dollar loan. Part of it is they're coming out of school with $400,000 in debt, and then they want to buy a house, and they have a car payment and and the thought of taking out a huge loan on a business is just daunting, and then knowing that they're going to have to put in that extra time and they're not given any business expertise, which is really funny, because the year after I bought my practice, I was very close to bankruptcy. I had no clue how to run a business, none, and so I had been out of school for 11 years at that point and had no idea what I was doing.
Dr. Judy Morgan 21:32
So, you know, I think that we need to do a better job explaining how to run a business, getting some business courses in there. But frankly, at this point, most of them do not want to be owners. So yeah, why make them take the business courses? I guess I don't know
Dr Erin Holder 21:45
Well, part of my program is actually addressing that. So we talk about, like, the culture of veterinary hospitals, which is so poor for the majority of our hospitals. And so we offer five routes to get to a better culture. And so those are really important for me. It's love, compassion, training, direction and delegation. And so those five bolsters we talk about in depth to help creating a better practice. And even if you're working in corporate, you can implement a lot of these things into the practice to create a better culture.
Dr. Judy Morgan 22:26
Yeah, and that is huge. I did relief work for quite a few years before I bought my own practice and was after, after I lost my job for being pregnant. Oh, you could do that in the 80s.
Dr Judy Morgan 22:40
So I did relief work for quite a few years, and it was amazing to walk into a different practice every week or multiple times a week, and see the different cultures in the different practices. And there just was always so much infighting and backstabbing.
Dr. Judy Morgan 22:58
And you know, I always said, you know, it's tends to be a female profession at the technician and front office level, although we are seeing some changes there. And it used to be a male dominated veterinary profession, and now it's becoming a female dominated profession. But I just it always felt like, oh my gosh, you get all these women and and the cattiness, and it would just be awful, and that was one of the things that I can credit in my practices, was that the staff, we spent a lot of time on team building and working well together, and it just made it so much better. Like you, you're you're under stressful conditions all day long. But if you work well with your teammates, and you actually like your teammates, it can make all the difference in the world. And I think once things like you said, once things get so big, when you've got the maximum I ever had was 13 employees, and that was between two clinics. So when you get up to 30-40, 50 people, you're going to have personality clashes, and that just plays into the whole dynamic of stress as well.
Dr Erin Holder
This is why the veterinary compassion fatigue project is so important, because these are the things that I was going over in my head, like, how do I do I go into a clinic and change the culture in a weekend like go visit them, and that's just not realistic. And so the whole point of the veterinary compassion fatigue project is to is to address each individual. And so we're again moving from our ego into our heart, that cattiness, that all of that comes from protecting the ego, and we're all so great at protecting the egos in our 20s and our 30s. So we need to figure out a way to move into our heart and make those Heart to heart connections with other people. And I think that's so important, and it's why you know, after two years of figuring out, like, what the heck happened to me, why did this happen, and putting together this beautiful retreat that we're so excited to launch in April.
Dr Erin Holder 25:00
That is, we need to come together as a community. We need to be there for each other, and we need to check our resumes and our egos at the door, and we need to come into a heart center space to listen to what's happening to the community, to listen to each other and to learn actually practical tools like one of the biggest stressors in veterinary medicine is the inability to have appropriate communication with maybe a staff that we need to reprimand, or maybe a staff member struggling, or maybe a client is acting inappropriately. We need these tools to try and help us be able to communicate with them. We need to learn that we're constantly over stimulated, that we're living in sympathetic overdrive, and that we need to balance our sympathetic overdrive, and we need to learn how to take care of ourselves, not by someone telling us, do yoga, do meditation, do this like we need to learn how to do these things. And so this retreat, which is this passion project, and my beautiful partner and I are putting this on, and we're just so excited to get people together. But I think Dr Judy, and where you come in, and you're so important, is that, number one, you say I suffered from compassion fatigue, and number two is we have veterinarians who have been pushing past obstacles their whole entire career, to get into vet school, to be in vet school, to be a veterinarian. How do we get them to stop and say, Yeah, you know what? I actually might need a little help. I actually might need to do this. And so my biggest challenge right now is breaking through into the group to say, Listen, you may not be suffering from compassion fatigue and burnout right now, but the writing is on the wall, and you're it's going to happen at some point. So why not come and learn and get help and be together? And let's join this community of people that are willing to admit that.
Dr. Judy Morgan 26:55
How big is your retreat going to be?
Dr. Erin Holder
So we're going to accept 100 people. We're starting pretty small and intimate for our first one, but we've got some really great speakers, and we just partnered with Dana and Krisanna, who are award winning filmmakers of Love Heals. And they're working on their documentary Rescued Hearts, which is about how horses help heal people. And so we're gonna, we just got some wonderful collaborators there. I think it's gonna be a pretty incredible event. And we're gonna drink lots of wine, if you're a wine drinker. We're gonna be in Sonoma County. So that's great.
Dr. Judy Morgan 27:35
Sounds amazing. So we are out of time, so the veterinary compassion fatigue project has a Facebook page. They have a Spotify podcast called the Veterinary Compassion Fatigue Project on YouTube. It is TVCFP, and the same on Instagram, and we will have all of that in the show notes. Erin, I'm very you know, everything happens for a reason, and you had this burnout and compassion fatigue, and got to spend two lovely years in Hawaii, yay.
Dr. Judy Morgan 28:09
You know, really doing some soul searching and figuring out why it happened and how you can help others through this. And I think that I forget how many veterinarians are in the country. It's something like 60,000 and I'm pretty sure that probably 59,999 need to attend and and work on this, because you might be the one person who's already got it figured out, but, but everybody else is, is, is still struggling, but it's a huge problem. And, you know, the problem is, if we don't address it. We the, you know, the average life expectancy for a veterinary nurse or technician is five years in the profession. I think that we're seeing that veterinarians are lasting about 10 years, and we've got this huge shortage. We've got this huge problem. And if we can't keep people like me in the business for 35 to 40 years, we can't replace them fast enough. And frankly, you it takes you the first 10 years to really learn what you're doing, and then you quit. Oh my gosh. You know, it's like, wow, you just got good I used to say that about Dobermans. It takes them two years to become like a normal, real dog, and then it's like, oh, and then you only live for another five? perfect
Dr. Judy Morgan 29:27
I don't have Dobermans anymore.
Dr. Erin Holder 29:31
Yeah, yeah, it's true.
Dr. Judy Morgan 29:35
Erin, thank you so much for being my guest today. I really appreciate you. I love what you're doing. Let's stay in touch and we'll have information about her retreat. But it's going to be April 4-6, 2025 in wine country, California, perfect place to be.
Outro
Thanks for listening to another great Naturally Healthy Pets episode. Be sure to check out the show notes for some helpful links. And if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. We value your feedback and we'd love to hear from you on how we're doing. Visit DrJudyMorgan.com for healthy product recommendations, comprehensive courses, upcoming events and other fantastic resources. Until next time, keep giving your pet the vibrant life they deserve.
DISCLAIMER
The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Dr. Judy and her guests express their own views, experience and conclusions. Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets neither endorses or opposes any particular view discussed here.