Intro 0:00
Welcome to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. Let's get to it.
Dr. Judy Morgan 0:05
Welcome to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. I'm your host, Dr Judy Morgan, my guest today is Dr Peter Dobias, DVM, HMC. He's an integrative veterinarian, serious dog lover and innovator with over 30 years of expertise. He loves empowering dog lovers to create happy and longer lives through writing, teaching, research and natural supplements. We are going to talk today about hormone replacement therapy in neutered and spayed dogs, some of the fallacies that are talked about and myths in spaying and neutering our dogs and why hormones matter for health and longevity. Peter, thank you so very much for agreeing to be my guest today.
Dr. Peter Dobias
Hello, Judy. Hi, Dr, Judy. I'm so glad to be here. Thank you.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Good. Well, we always have fun, and you know, we're finally going to get to meet in person. And you did get to meet somebody on our team, Krista in person. So I thought that was really cool.
Dr. Peter Dobias
That was fun.
Dr. Judy Morgan
she was, she was very impressed.
Dr. Peter Dobias 1:08
She was probably more impressed with my dog Pax.
Dr. Peter Dobias 1:11
But since then, he's transformed as well, and that's why we are sitting here as well, because he's part of the whole hormone, hormone replacement therapy story. It's not a story, it's reality, actually.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Oh, very that's very cool. So it has been standard operating procedure in the veterinary field, at least in the US, I know in Europe, they have very, very different thoughts about spaying and neutering our dogs.
Dr. Judy Morgan 1:43
And I think that a much if I'm not mistaken, a large majority of dogs in Europe are left intact, whereas in the United States, the veterinary community, the rescue communities, push very, very hard for spay neuter by six months of age so that there can be no chance of accidental breeding. And I don't know if that's because Americans are just the most irresponsibly impacted pet owners in the world. I mean, what is it that we can't handle an intact dog? Why is it that we can't keep intact dogs from breeding when we don't want them to? I don't know. I always get a lot of pushback from the rescue community saying, well, there's so many dogs being euthanized. It's all for population control. Again, that brings us back to responsible pet ownership, because I don't think, in Europe, I don't think that spay/neuter is used as a population control measure. Is it?
Dr. Peter Dobias 2:49
You know, it may be, but generally, you know, I'm going to actually start with comparing those two worlds, because you started just kind of doing that, and I think it's a good start. I really appreciate it.
Dr. Peter Dobias 3:02
I've been in North America and Canada and the US for over 30 years, and I've been also very much believing that spaying and neutering dogs is much better for them because they don't get frustrated due to unfulfilled sexual urges and so on. Also, obviously, homelessness is another one. And overall, I thought that dogs actually that are neutered and spayed are happier because we don't want them to procreate uncontrollably.
Dr. Peter Dobias 3:31
I've experienced a huge transformation when it comes to my own view at the at this issue. And you know, it happens, happens to us in veterinary medicine, we think that we kind of know something, and then, if we're humble enough, we actually realize that we are wrong often. So I was definitely wrong in this perception. I started asking questions when I started going back to the Czech Republic more often, and so many dogs actually that are unneutered, just interacting very peacefully. In fact, I've seen less aggression dog aggression in unneutered dogs than neutered dogs. And now, when I'm coming going back and forth, because my partner is in Canada, and I have to go back and forth because I'm a good partner, I started noticing that large majority of dogs either are not well socialized or they're even dog aggressive, and many of them are neutered. So that's one part of the story, but second part of the story is that I happen to have a beautiful border collie dog Pax. And after he got neutered about two years in his life, and grew up strong and wonderful, and I thought I had it all figured. Because, you know, I really focus on nutrition and supplements and exercise and physical therapy and chiropractic. And he was amazing, and pretty much within.
Dr. Peter Dobias 5:00
six months, after he was neutered, he started getting injured himself, and I started seeing the changes in his behavior, where he suddenly started barking and being anxious about certain things, he suddenly was afraid of flying, and he's a certified service dog. Again, a little caveat. I'm a sleepwalker, and I have a certified service dog for my sleepwalking,
Dr. Peter Dobias 5:23
and I sleepwalked through glass door long time ago, and Pax is barking right now. I'm not sure whether you hear him anyway, going back so he started getting injured, and the injuries first kind of recovered relatively quickly, and then it became more and more chronic, and pretty much in the last year, until this March, 2024 he was lame, and I was not able to swim with him. I was not able to hike with him. I was super upset. I was anxious. I was not really sure what I was missing.
Dr. Peter Dobias 5:59
He's five now. Yeah, so, so in the process of all this, and when it started happening, I started doing more research, and realized that there is a body of research that actually suggests that neutering and spraying our dogs is actually not that harmless, that it has profound effect, not only on how our dogs grow and evolve, but also in their physical and mental health. And the people who have been really
Dr. Peter Dobias 6:29
an amazing source of information is Dr Michelle Kutzler and Dr Linda Brandt, who've done the most research when it comes to neutering and spaying dogs and how it affects them. So there is a huge shift and change in how I understand
Dr. Peter Dobias 6:49
neutering and spaying. And after reading all these studies, I decided to actually put my dog Pax on hormone replacement therapy. And that just totally blew my mind. And not only that, I knew about the previous cases and the studies, but seeing the transformation in my own eyes, when from a dog that basically is not well, even though he was okay, I could see change into his behavior. He was a little sadder. I thought, I thought he was getting older. He got injured. Whenever he ran and chased a squirrel or something like that, he would be limping. And we really had nothing to do, nothing else to do. To a dog that is absolutely 100% and that has transformed with regards to his attitude, his energy, his fears are gone. His his lameness is gone. All that actually just just made me realize that I have to talk more about this and help Dr Brandt and Dr Kutzler and everyone who is actually in the industry to kind of understand and share my own experience, but also the research that they've done, and I'm very grateful for it.
Dr. Judy Morgan 8:03
Yeah, I we're seeing more and more research on this, and we're debunking a lot of the myths that have long been held. So what kind of hormone replacement therapy are you using, and how long have you been using it?
Dr. Peter Dobias 8:19
If it's okay, before we start with the hormone replacement therapy, I just want to explain a little bit about how this all works and how, actually, what happens in the body when we neuter our dogs.
Dr. Peter Dobias 8:31
So I'm going to take some age Okay, so let's say that these are testicles and this is the brain. Okay, so the testicles and the brain communicate. In the brain, there are two glands that are super important, the hypothalamus and the pituitary gland. So the hypothalamus actually sends the nerve signals. It's kind of a connection between the hormones and the nerve system, and it sends the signals to the pituitary gland. And the pituitary gland sends the signals to the gonads, whether it's ovaries or testicles to produce hormones, testosterone, let's say,
Dr. Peter Dobias 9:06
or estrogen and others. When we remove, when we remove the testicles, suddenly, the pituitary gland thinks that there is not enough testosterone. Well, there is not enough testosterone. It doesn't it perceives it. It's basically a sensor, right? And when there is not enough testosterone, the pituitary gland goes into overdrive and starts producing hormone, which is called luteinizing hormone. And the luteinizing hormone normally would stimulate the testicles, or the ovaries to produce the hormones, but, but the testicles are gone. So what it actually does, it increases from three to 90 units. I'm just gonna, not gonna be too complex about it, but it increases a lot, and because it has nowhere else to go, it starts latching onto receptors that are elsewhere, elsewhere in the body.
Dr. Peter Dobias 9:55
And we did not know until Dr Kutzler actually mapped these receptors and discovered they're not only in the testicles and the ovaries, but they're also in the ligaments. They're also in the thyroid gland. They're in tissues, they're in skin, they're in the gut, they're in the brain, in some of the emotional centers of the brain, and also they were found in in tumors and cancerous lesions such as lymphoma, osteosarcoma or hemangiosarcoma. So she started actually looking at at the relationship of these, and discovered that the luteinizing hormone actually has a very strong inflammatory
Dr. Peter Dobias 10:36
ability. It causes inflammation, and when there's inflammation, you know, the body usually goes and tries to kind of correct it, and sometimes destroys the inflamed cells. So she actually did research in cruciate ligaments and thyroid gland, and discovered that these complexes or these receptors in the thyroid gland caused the LH, the luteinizing hormone to latch onto the cells and possibly maybe causing hypothyroidism. Now she's stating that there's a lot of research needing to be done, but she also suspects that there may be some sort of link between, let's say, the hemangiosarcoma and the lymphoma and the tumors that we know are actually more likely to happen in early neutered and spayed animals. Maybe somehow related to the luteinizing hormone. And even more interestingly, she actually derived these studies in dogs from from women and post menopausal situations where women actually experience the same thing, increase of luteinizing hormone, changes in emotions, inflammation, hot flashes, achiness and all that. So when I started listening to these studies, I definitely made, made a decision to put Pax on the on the treatment, because I had nothing else left.
Dr. Peter Dobias 11:55
And you asked the question, so what do you do with Pax? And how do you actually, how? What did you do in the hormone replacement therapy. It's It's relatively simple. It's actually in males, it's much more simple than in females. And the female hormone replacement therapy dog, dog females, canine females is not as easy to implement, but I'm going to start with dogs, because that that that's a good introduction into that.
Dr. Peter Dobias 12:21
The major issue, there are two issues, obviously. One of them is the the absence of the testosterone in male dogs, and that leads to not only change in behavioral but muscle loss. And if you have a dog that actually grows up strong under the influence of the hormones, let's say that we neuter them later, and they have strong bones and strong muscles, and then they lose the muscles, they actually start having difficulty to pull the bones with the muscles that are weakened now. So that may be one of the reasons why I get they get injured. So the testosterone, actually, the absence of testosterone leads to muscle loss, and we know that also in humans, as we get older, that people lose muscles and they start being feeble. And the second issue is that the luteinizing hormone starts causing the inflammatory changes in the body. And Dr Kutzler actually points to one really interesting possibility, that the emotional centers in the brain, such as the brain stem and the amygdala, get inflamed and affected by this luteinizing hormone as well, and that's how we start seeing these changes in behavior and sensitivity to noise that is increased, or suddenly phobias, unusual behavior. I definitely experienced it in Pax when we were flying. He was absolutely fine before he got neutered. And when he got neutered, he started being really anxious, and to the point where he actually would have almost like a mini panic attack for half an hour, then he would settle down. So the luteinizing hormone is a big issue, and the treatment or protocol that Dr Kutzler and Dr Brandt developed consists of two steps. One of them is to use nefluorin or Suprelorin, which is a which is a drug that is originally intended to suppress testosterone production in unneutered males and or even in ferrets. So this is actually a little strange, right? Like we are using a medication that normally would be to suppress the testosterone, to actually treat the dog that actually has been neutered as side effects of that. But I'm going to explain it, because it's it's relatively simple. So I'm going to take the brain again here, and the pituitary gland basically is in overdrive because the testicles are missing
Dr. Peter Dobias 14:51
and we need to neutralize the luteinizing hormone that is produced by pituitary gland. What the Suprelorin does. It actually tells the hypothalamus to stimulate the pituitary gland to produce more luteinizing hormone, and it takes it into overdrive. But weirdly enough, the pituitary gland shuts down the production. So by using the Suprelorin we tell the hypothalamus to produce more, and Pituitary goes, no, no, I'm not going to produce more. I'm going to shut it completely, which is a little bit of a paradox, right in the hormonal world, we would always expect that there's going to be some sort of different kind of feedback. But this is how it works. So if you put the implant, if you give the implant of Suprelorin in the body, and implant it under the skin. I implanted it under, under the skin on the just beside the belly button,
Dr. Peter Dobias 15:48
in in Pax's, his case, for about a day he was like, he looked like he was. He ran a marathon, and I started to worry, because I actually didn't really know whether that it was a good thing or not. And then suddenly he was just completely relieved, and I could see that the inflammatory kind of responses in his back and his muscles kind of went down. But I did not use this luteinizing hormone suppressant, let's say, in conjunction with testosterone. I wanted to separate them, so I actually put him on Suprelorin for one month, and he was happier, he was less inflamed, but what I start to see is increase in itching, and he started losing his hair. And I was thinking, oh my goodness, what did I do? Like now I have a dog that is going to be hairless within a couple of months, right? And so my plan was to actually put him on testosterone, and I did, and pretty much within a few weeks, like I could start seeing the changes, the itching stopped right away. And within two months, he stopped limping. And I also added, obviously, laser therapy, and I added joint supplement. All that was part of the treatment, but I could definitely see that the testosterone in combination with the Suprelorin was the best way to go. And I would not recommend necessarily to do the experiments that I did that I separated those two medications. But the transformation is mind blowing. And I can send you some pictures, and you can even show them here, because
Dr. Peter Dobias 17:27
I experienced exactly the same thing what the researchers experienced and saw in the studies.
Dr. Judy Morgan
So that's really, really cool. And I have read a couple of studies on this, especially where they were talking about behavior. We need to take a quick break to hear from our sponsor. We'll be right back. We'll continue this fascinating conversation.
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Dr. Judy Morgan 19:49
welcome back. You're listening to Naturally Healthy Pets. I'm your host. Dr Judy Morgan, and my guest today is Dr Peter Dobias, and we're talking about hormone replacement Therapy and his dog Pax, and the amazing changes that he saw once he did this. So is this something that is readily available for pet parents? And do you think that, do you think that veterinarians are kind of on board with this, or is this going to be one of those? We're going to have to have a lot of conversations?
Dr. Peter Dobias 20:31
That's a loaded question. So first, this treatment is available in some countries, not in others. I still don't know why, but for and this is a very, very sad, sad situation, because in the US, the medication Suprelorin is not used in dogs, and it's not certified or approved for dogs. It's approved only in ferrets. It is available in Canada. It is available in the European Union, where I'm licensed now, and so I do there's probably some routes where you can actually sign a waiver, or you can do off label use, which is actually something that veterinarians have to do often, because not all the medication is used for, for or approved for Dogs or other animals.
Dr. Peter Dobias 21:22
So so it is available, and it can be it's, you know, it's reasonably cost effective. It's not more than a few $100 for the six month implant, and the one year implant is obviously more expensive, but it's a small implant that actually has the, you know, it's time release. So it basically works for either six months or 12 months. And Pax is the six month one I wanted to and I would recommend using the six month one, just in case there are some side effects. But the other good news is that you can actually very easily remove the implant if you needed to, with a little bit of local anesthetic, almost like if you, if you squeeze a pimple right? Like you make a little incision and you squeeze it out, so taking out a microchip Exactly, exactly. So when it comes to
Dr Judy Morgan
really cool, yeah, so what do we do with our girls?
Dr. Peter Dobias
Well, actually, I'm, let's, let's talk about the girls in a moment. But I You asked me another, another part of the question was about veterinarians and so, so So I think that most veterinarians are very cautious and careful about jumping on the wagon now, because the studies are still relatively new, they're all 2020, and newer, but I think that
Dr. Peter Dobias 22:39
People are starting to ask questions, and also clients and dog lovers are starting to ask questions, and cat lovers are starting to ask questions. And I've heard from Dr Linda Brandt that there are more and more veterinarians actually connecting with their organization or foundation, to learn how to do ovary sparing spays, and testicle sparing vasectomies. So I think that it's going to take some time, but because there is research done, and the changes will be so profound, I have a I'm very hopeful, and I'm I'm kind of betting that within five years, we are going to have a really good situation here, and people will be adopting new methods. But
Dr. Judy Morgan
so do you think the shift might go more toward hormone replacement therapy or more toward maybe we should just leave them intact?
Dr. Peter Dobias
Oh, it's, without a doubt what we should be doing.
Dr. Peter Dobias 23:44
So again, there are several different options for us. Right? People who are responsible and will not let their dogs run around freely and breed can probably leave their dogs intact. And I've seen no difference, or negative difference, in homelessness in Europe, like I would say that there's probably fewer homeless dogs than in North America, and most dogs are unneutered and unspayed
Dr. Peter Dobias 24:11
for but I do feel that this kind of approach may be really faced with opposition. So hormone sparing sterilization, such as ovary sparing spays and vasectomies are most likely the way to go for most dog lovers who are worried that their dog will run away and breed or will get pregnant.
Dr. Peter Dobias 24:34
And I also believe that that this will be, ideally, this should be the method of choice for rescue organizations, humane societies, SPCA and so on. Because, you know, ultimately, these organizations, and I believe that they're there for the well being of the animals, and undeniably, we have been harming them without knowing by spaying them and neutering them and doing so also early. So, you know, there's scientific studies, there's research. This is, this is nothing else than really focusing on what we are learning and and adjusting our course. And I also believe that
Dr. Peter Dobias 25:17
the human mind is funny. I just read a book on how difficult it is to change a preconceived idea of a group of people and so, and it's evolution, evolutionary kind of basis. So, so we can't really blame ourselves humans for sometimes being inflexible or trying to defend our own ideas, right? Like, I have a lot of empathy to that, because I'm sure that I can be caught by by being a little more or less flexible, but I do my best to actually learn and adjust.
Dr. Judy Morgan 25:49
Yes, so we so we shall see so some of the pushback that we get. And, you know, it's funny, because I was talking to somebody earlier about things that came out of my mouth in the past, like, Oh no, we can't feed raw food because of bacteria, and then six months later, I'm dyed in the wool raw feeder. So you know, these things happen where we have a belief, and then we learn something different, and our belief has to change, like yours did with Pax. So one of the things that is thrown out there all the time, why we have to spay and neuter early is that, if particularly, I'm going to talk spay right now, but if dogs go through a heat cycle, their risk of developing mammary cancer doubles, and if they go through two heat cycles, oh my gosh, now it goes through The roof. And so there was actually a study and an article that I just read today, and it said that most of the studies that it's this one says the one study said dog spayed after two or more estrous cycles had a 26% relative risk. However, the statistics were wrong, because when they actually went back and laid out the true statistics based on the entire dog population, not this way they were skewing it. The rate of mammary cancer in intact females that have gone through multiple heat cycles is .18%
Dr. Judy Morgan 27:23
that is negligible, yet what comes out of the mouths of most veterinarians is, oh, your dog is going to get mammary cancer. And we have great studies from Europe where most of the females are left intact and they don't have this huge problem with memory cancer, no more so than what we see in the spayed population. So I think that we have to start looking at things a little more critically, not just cherry picking what we want our statistics to be.
Dr. Judy Morgan 27:59
And and we actually know for the males, prostatic cancer is more common in neutered males. So, you know, we can't, like, I hear this from people all the time, oh, my vet says he'll get prostatic cancer. Oh, my vet says she'll get mammary cancer. And we, we need to debunk that myth right off the bat. We also need pet owners to be responsible pet owners. My animals have always been spayed and neutered. I now have an un neutered male who will stay that way.
Dr. Judy Morgan 28:32
It is definitely going to be a little trickier for people to own multiple dogs or multiple cats, intact males and females, and that's where vasectomies and ovary sparing spays can be just a blessing. I One of the problems is the veterinary schools do not teach those surgeries, and we need to change them.
Dr. Peter Dobias
Well, Dr Kutzler, who is a veterinarian, actually goes around and teaches number one, and
Dr. Judy Morgan
I really hope they teach this to all the students?
Dr. Peter Dobias
Yeah, I hope so too. And I think it's just a matter of time, like, if you look at Newton's story, his story shows that that it takes time for new ideas to catch the Earth was flat, right as well. But you know the when it comes to the research, I think that our obligation as veterinarians is to also question the research studies and question ourselves, question everything that we do every day, because if we don't, then we may fall into the trap of thinking that we know what the truth is and it's all, it's all, It should be, all subject to review and criticism and scrutiny.
Dr. Peter Dobias 29:45
You also asked about the female dogs. So female dogs are much more complicated, and because, you know, the reproductive cycle and some some listeners and viewers may know too
Dr. Peter Dobias 30:00
you know, the cycles are the cycle. Female cycle is much more difficult. Obviously. Male, when they're healthy, they produce testosterone and sperm, and it's easy. But when it comes to females, the hormone fluctuation is very severe during the cycle. The cycle is not always six months or eight months. Sometimes it can be once a year, sometimes it can be twice a year, and the surges of the hormones are much more difficult to predict. So if, even if you wanted to mimic the natural cycle of females by hormone replacement therapy, it's much more difficult, and it's been a subject of discussions, not only in dogs, but also in people. So I actually took the liberty of making a call with Dr, calling Dr Brandt and saying, hey, you know, I'm really looking for any research studies or information with females. And she basically had the same comment that this has not been researched as much, and it has to be done because the cycle is so complicated. But
Dr. Peter Dobias 31:05
I think that there's one way of determining whether females are affected by being spayed, by measuring their luteinizing hormone and see if it's really elevated, and then we have a decision to make whether we'll put them on the luteinizing hormone suppressant or not, and whether we'll try to somehow mimic the cycle that they would normally go through,
Dr Peter Dobias 31:32
or the other option is that we will not, but I suspect that if we put them only on the Suprelorin and there's no research, this is just my personal opinion that will probably not go as well as if we actually try to develop some sort of hormone replacement therapy plan. And this needs to be done. There is a lot of work to be done, and I know that the Parsemus Foundation has been kind of thinking about sponsoring and researching this particular area, and I'm hoping that it's gonna, it's gonna be done soon, but even yesterday, I was just, you know, I knew that I was going to talk to you, so I just kind of went in the books and looked at the fluctuation of the female hormones, female dogs. And it really is like a roller coaster, like, within six months, everything happens, right? The the, you know, the in the luteinizing hormone goes up, and then during the estrus, it goes down, and the estrogen and then progesterones, and then in between the heat, the hormone levels are relatively low, but they're still there. So that's why unspayed females can actually hold their urine better, because their sphincters are more tight, and obviously there's production of estrogen and progesterone and also small amount of testosterone. So all that actually plays a role. So you know, I hope that we'll be able to figure it out. But as you know, at school, endocrinology or hormone science is very, very complex, and it's a little scary, and we're just kind of starting to understand it in dogs. So
Dr. Judy Morgan 33:14
yep, absolutely Peter, we are out of time. Thank you so much, and thank you for sharing your story of your dealing with Pax. I think sometimes when these personal things happen to our own pets, that's when we kind of go down the rabbit hole of, why is this happening, and how do I fix it? And that just makes us better able to have these kinds of discussions and try to help other people. So thank you very much for your honesty, for sharing that with us. And Parsemus Foundation is an amazing group, and I think that they need to be better publicized. More people need to know about that, particularly the veterinary world. So everybody who wants to find any more information about Dr Dobias, it's PeterDobias.com he has amazing products,
Dr. Judy Morgan 34:08
and if you subscribe to our newsletter, you get a $10 off coupon to use on your first order with Dr Dobias. So check out his products. They're amazing. I've used all of them on my dogs as well. And Peter, thank you very much.
Dr. Peter Dobias
It's very kind of you. Thank you so much. Judy. And and you said, I just want one more thing to say, dogs always come to us as our teachers. So, you know, I believe that when they come to a vet, they definitely have a mission to send a message from the canine or animal world, period, and
Dr. Peter Dobias 34:43
this is how it should be. Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity. Take Care, bye.
Outro
Thanks for listening to another great Naturally Healthy Pets episode. Be sure to check out the show notes for some helpful links. And if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. We value your feedback and we'd love to hear from you on how we're doing. Visit DrJudyMorgan.com for healthy product recommendations, comprehensive courses, upcoming events and other fantastic resources. Until next time, keep giving your pet the vibrant life they deserve.
DISCLAIMER
The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Dr. Judy and her guests express their own views, experience and conclusions. Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets neither endorses or opposes any particular view discussed here.
