INTRO 0:00
Welcome to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. Let's get to it. Hi, I'm Dr Judy Morgan, your host for the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. My guest today is a repeat guest, because we had so much fun the first time that we had a conversation that I said we need to have her back so Dr, Angie Krause is joining me today. She is a holistic small animal veterinarian in Boulder, Colorado, beautiful area. She believes that cats are underserved and deserve more from veterinary medicine and society. I wholeheartedly agree. That's why she has created Natural Cat Vet a community just for cats and the people that love them. Welcome Angie. Thank you so much for joining me again.
Dr. Angie Krause
Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here
Dr. Judy Morgan
so we had I don't even remember what we talked about last time, other than the fact that cats are so often second class citizens, and I happen to be the proud person who is allowed to take care of nine cats right now, You don't ever own cats, so I don't even think you can be a cat pet parent. I think you can just be their servant. So anyway, I love my kitties. Two of them live totally inside, and the other seven were born from strays in our barn. So we've had them since, you know, they first left mama, and they are the healthiest, happiest, oh my gosh, raw fed, doing their natural cat thing. And the funny thing is, our we have a greenhouse. It's supposed to be for my gardening needs. However, it kind of blew apart in one of the hurricanes that came through a couple years ago, a year ago, and so we had it rebuilt really, really sturdy. And as soon as we built it, the cats moved into it, the Barn Cats, they said it's so warm and sunny in here. So my greenhouse, we ended up putting in a fan for when it's warm. We put in little heated houses and put electric in it for when it's cold. We put a cat door in it so that they can come and go, and then it's full of cat beds and a cat tree. And I don't have a greenhouse anymore.
Dr. Angie Krause 2:18
It's a catio now you've joined the catio trend,
Dr. Judy Morgan 2:23
so crazy. So, you know, it's like, Okay, you guys have this barn with hay, and there's heated houses in there as well. And no, no, we like the greenhouse is up closer to the house. And they're because they were hand raised. They they just, they're, they're very people oriented. So, you know, you go outside and it's really funny because there's a trail of seven cats running behind you wherever you go. I know they're really cute. So today we're going to continue our conversation about some cat specific things, because contrary to popular belief, cats are not small dogs. They are so different,
Dr. Angie Krause 3:01
so different, yes.
Dr. Judy Morgan 3:04
So we want to focus mainly on urinary things like kidney issues and urinary tract problems. So I'm going to start off by saying one of my indoor cats, I had three. Two were brother and sister, and these were all bottle babies, where they couldn't stay with their mamas. And the little girl was peeing all over our kitchen counters, if you can, you know of all places to pick in the house, the kitchen counters. And so if I, if I put my my pee pads on my kitchen counters every night, then she wouldn't, but if I didn't, we were guaranteed to have cat pee. And when her brother passed away, he developed carcinoma under his tongue. When he passed away, she stopped doing it. So that's my lead into not a medical problem.
Dr. Angie Krause 4:03
Yes, most urinary problems when cats are peeing outside of the box. Most of the time, it's not a medical issue. Usually, if you bring your cat to the veterinarian, we might find a medical issue that's unrelated to the urinary problems. But most of the time, cats are stressed, and it manifests in their bladder. And so in Chinese medicine, we kind of think of them as, like, literally being pissed off. They're upset. And there are a lot of things that upset cats that we wouldn't think of being upsetting. And just like you experienced sometimes, cats live with other cats, and we think they like each other, until we find out they don't. We think they get along. Some people even say, Oh, they sleep together, or they groom each other. And that might be true, but just like with other people, you can be getting along sometimes, and most of the time not be getting along. And so most urinary issues, and especially when it's we're peeing little, tiny amounts around, we have that cystitis, we think, as people like, oh, it's probably a bacterial infection. And unless your kitty is much older with kidney disease, it's probably not a bacterial infection. And so we need to find ways to help de stress your kitty. And there are a lot of great ways to do that now
Dr. Judy Morgan 5:22
there are, I mean, in my case, we lost one cat, and now I've got two litter boxes and two cats in the house. And it's funny, she has her litter box that she uses. He has his litter box that he uses, and they do not share. And so for a lot of people, if you have multiple cats, you need to have at least as many litter boxes as you have cats, and usually one extra. And the other thing that I found this was really interesting. I discovered this with an animal communicator in my office. This cat was not using the litter box, and there were two cats in the household, and so the communicator said, I see that you've got your litter box hidden back in a corner in your home office. And the woman went, Wow, I do. And she said, Well, I wanted it out of the way where, you know, the litter wouldn't track and nobody would see it, and blah, blah. And the communicator said, Yeah, but you have another cat. This is the communicator, not an animal person. So that's what made it even cooler. No knowledge of veterinary medicine. And he said, I think your other cat is beating up that cat. And she said, yeah, he kind of chases her around, and it's kind of kind of a little bit mean to her. And he said, Uh huh. And he's trapping her back in that litter box, and she doesn't want to get near it. You've got to put that litter box where she has a clear line of sight and she can see if he's coming. And soon as the owner changed things around, the problem stopped. And so again, you know, sometimes we box our cats into these problem corners that they kind of don't have a choice. I mean, can you imagine you're sitting in the bathroom, totally vulnerable, and your worst enemy walks in and slaps you.
Dr. Angie Krause 7:04
Oh, no, yeah, you're gonna get anxiety about sitting down on the toilet, for sure. Yeah, and cats and then so they think, Oh, I feel more safe to pee in this corner. I can see, I can get away. Maybe I even have somewhere to jump up,
Dr. Judy Morgan 7:19
right? So I'm peeing on the kitchen counter. It's like, I'm up high. I can see if anybody's coming,
Dr. Angie Krause 7:24
yes, and so, yeah, it's sometimes it's hard to even imagine how your cat feels. And so I encourage people to experiment, experiment with the type of litter. Experiment with an open box, a closed box. My favorite thing to do is to get the under the bed storage containers from Target. They're really, like, kind of low lipped, and they're wide. And so sometimes, if cats are bigger than most average litter boxes, they feel better when they can turn around and posture. And so really experiment, like, think outside the litter box for sure, when you know you're positioning your litter boxes and creating your cat's potty space
Dr. Judy Morgan 8:01
Well, one of my outdoor cats last week, he went missing overnight, which sometimes they'll do that, and he missed two meals, and he came back, and he was he's in the greenhouse in the morning. We're like, okay, good. He's back. He was just very lethargic, not moving. Didn't want to eat, and so I took his temperature and it was 104.5. I'm like, oh, boy. What's happened with you? So, you know, then the eyes got gooey, and I'm like, Okay, we've got a virus. Well, by day three of not eating. Now I'm worried about kidney or liver failure, so we go go off to the veterinary office, and I had moved him into the house in quarantine, in my home office, and I brought in my extra litter box, which happened to be a covered litter box. So on day two, inside my home office, I'm like, there is still nothing in this litter box. Now you're not eating, so I'm okay that there's no poop in here, but you've had sub q fluids three days in a row. You gotta be peeing somewhere. And then I look around, and my dog beds in my office are now covered with cat pee, like dripping in cat pee. And so I went, Oh, you don't you like you're an outdoor cat. This covered litter box is not cutting it for you. Took the cover off the box, put some fresh litter in there. And he was like, Oh, got it. Okay. So you know this just, you know us not thinking like a closed in space for a cat that's used to being out in the open, he wasn't going to do that
Dr. Angie Krause 9:31
absolutely. Yeah, that's so important. And some cats that are indoor/outdoor, you bring them inside, and they're like, I'm not, I'm not doing this here. Please let me out and in the in the winter here, when we get snow, a lot of my patients decide to pee somewhere else, besides the litter box, because they're used to being outside.
Dr. Judy Morgan 9:48
yeah, yeah. So you know, I It's if you're having problems with those cats that just seem to avoid the litter box, figure out why you got to get inside their little cat head and. You know, is somebody else you know? Is there a dog in the house that's guarding are there kids that are too loud and noisy? Is their food or water too close to the litter box? Because, you know, we I would not want to eat near my bathroom. So my bathroom is pretty clean, but I still...and so they think the same way, and cats are really actually much more finicky than what we realize, as far as just the location of things, again, being able to see if any predators are coming, like even watching my cats eat, they eat on the flat platters, so that they can kind of see who else is coming and what's coming around them. And I put their platters out in the middle of the barn in the open where they can see the other cats coming or anything else that might be coming at them. It's really important. When we try to stick them in a corner, they're like, Well, I can't see if anybody's coming. This is, you know, I'm pretty vulnerable right now. All those things to consider. So let's switch tracks a little bit. We only got a minute or so before we have to take a break. But so, you know, we're talking about cystitis and litter box problems and urinary problems, and it's really a lot related to stress. We can get that interstitial cystitis, which is a sterile there's no bacteria there. The reason antibiotics work, and the reason, well, most veterinarians don't give them for this reason, but the reason the antibiotics work is because, from a energetic standpoint, they're cooling. And a cystitis "itis" means inflammation. So when we have a hot inflammation, we give an antibiotic. It seems like it's working and killing bacteria, but there's no bacteria there. So if we do a culture, we don't get bacteria, but we're calming inflammation by cooling. I think there are better ways to do that than antibiotics.
Dr. Angie Krause 11:57
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. I love to use Chinese herbs for cooling, there's a formula San Ren Tang, that is my absolute favorite for cats with cystitis, and so,
Dr. Judy Morgan 12:08
yeah, we've had really, really good success with PEA palmitoyl ethanolamine, because it's used for inner interstitial cystitis in women. Well, I should just say humans. It's just more of a female problem, but it's worked really, really well for the kitty cats, they don't mind it doesn't really have any flavor, and so you can sprinkle it on their food, and they're really, really good about taking it. So that's something that we've just started playing with in the last year or so, and had really, really good luck with that.
Dr. Angie Krause 12:41
Oh, that's new to me. How would you dose that? And who? What product do you use? How does that come?
Dr. Judy Morgan 12:46
We have our own private label, Dr Judy Morgan's PEA. So you can go on Dr Judymorgan.com and just type in PEA in the search. And we actually teamed up with the Two Crazy Cat Ladies for the cat size jar, because you only need, like, 1/32 of a teaspoon. It's just such a tiny
Dr. Angie Krause 13:04
Is that like a pinch of a pinch?
Dr. Judy Morgan 13:07
pretty much, yes. So I actually went out and bought a 1/16 teaspoon. And just do half of that. I think we have little tiny scoops that come with it, but it's just, it's been kind of a godsend for a lot of these cats with this inflammation.
Dr. Angie Krause 13:23
And you keep them on it forever, you know, like once you have that cystitis kitty and you just do it forever?
Dr. Judy Morgan 13:28
you can, okay, no, there's no downside, there's no side effects. All of my dogs are on it for neurologic problems. Actually, everybody in my family's on it. it's just a great anti inflammatory. So I have a great blog, blog on why is everybody talking about PEA on the website? So you might want to check that out, and for all you who are listening, check it out as well. All right, we have now used our minute. We're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsor, and when we come back, we're going to talk about kidney disease and how we should be feeding our cats with kidney disease, because a lot of times we're doing it all wrong. We'll be right back.
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Dr. Judy Morgan
Welcome back. You're listening to Dr Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets. I'm Dr Judy Morgan, and my guest today is Dr Angie Krause, the Natural Cat Vet, and I love what what she does out there in Boulder, Colorado. If any of you are out in that neck of the woods, you might want to find out where she is and go say hi. So we want to talk about kidney disease. What are we? What are we doing? Well, not us. What are traditional veterinarians commonly doing wrong with these cats who are diagnosed and chronic kidney disease is rampant in our senior kitty cats. Oh, all right, this is off topic. Have you seen the studies where they talk about how vaccines in cats are contributing to chronic kidney disease?
Dr. Angie Krause 16:53
Yes, I've actually talked to some internists at CSU where they are suspecting it. They can't, they can't make the studies work, but it's definitely something that they're suspecting, which really isn't surprising, because, you know, we're
Dr. Judy Morgan 17:05
It was presented at AHVMA to not this year, but the year before. And I didn't get to go to the lecture, but there was someone who presented on it. So I know there are papers out there on it, and I think we definitely need to do more research. And I think, you know, we need to convince everyone to not be over vaccinating their kitty cats for so many reasons.
Dr. Angie Krause
I know, like there are so many reasons beyond that,
Dr. Judy Morgan
tumors, cat likes cats like the big tumors
Dr. Angie Krause 17:32
vaccine sites, yes, oh my gosh, we could have a whole nother episode on that
Dr. Judy Morgan 17:36
Yeah, you and I could just do a weekly podcast on cat issues,
Dr. Judy Morgan 17:42
there's a there's a new thing for us to do, because we need more work
Dr. Judy Morgan 17:47
so, so What? What? What is the most common mistake that you see like people come to you and they're like, Okay, well, I took my cat to the vet and his kidney values were just slightly elevated, or his SDMA was 15 instead of 14. And this is what I'm being told to feed my cat,
Dr. Angie Krause 18:07
yes. So most people their cats get diagnosed in really early stage kidney disease, and veterinarians want to restrict protein and phosphorus, and so that's like a classic renal prescription diet, or kidney diet like KD and by Hill's and a lot of cat lovers come to me, and they're like Angie, this is does not feel in line. I don't want to feed my cat a dry food. I don't want to feed a prescription diet. I'm looking at the ingredient deck, and I don't know what to do, because I also want to take care of my cat. And so that feels like a scary diagnosis, but for most cats, they're living in stage two, stage one/two and sometimes even three for years. And we know that cats are obligate carnivores, and so when we restrict their protein to make their kidneys happier, we upset a lot of other systems, including their muscle mass. And just like people, the amount of muscle your cat has in their senior years is going to directly affect how long they live. And so while restricting protein in later stages of kidney disease, late stage three and four really can make your cat feel better, it's not the appropriate time to do it in stage two. And what's really great is there's a new raw kidney diet out by Medicus. I don't know if you've started using it. I just started,
Dr. Judy Morgan 19:30
so I'm not in practice anymore, but Medicus has renal diets. Darwin's has renal diets. Raised Right just came out with renal diets, but I think they're only for dogs right now. So we're getting more and more of them, and this is what we're looking for. So to me, it's such an oxymoron. I've got this old dehydrated cat who has no muscle mass, and putting them on a dry food with 6% moisture when the cat is already a dehydrated mess. How does that make any sense at all? So, but even if we said, Okay, well, I'll use the canned product or the stew, the little pouch product that's got more moisture, great, if it only has 6-9% protein, we're losing muscle mass. And guess what? The most important muscle in the body is the heart. Oh, I don't have enough protein to support muscle, but I want the heart to keep beating,
Dr. Angie Krause 20:36
right? Yeah, it's really important. Especially as cats become arthritic, they need muscle to support their joints. And there's so many systems that a protein restricted diet effects. And so I think kidney diets are well intentioned. I think they're placed incorrectly. we just need to first of all place them later on.
Dr. Judy Morgan 20:57
Yeah, there should not be a dry kidney diet. There should not be a dry, well, there should not be a dry anything for cats. I don't even like it for dogs, but for cats, oh my gosh. It's like, oh, he's dehydrated. His entire life is perfect. I mean, cats, cats are desert animals by origin. They they're not big drinkers, like I rarely see my cats drink, and they're so sensitive to bacteria and contamination, the cats don't eat, you know, a dog, dead animal, they're good. They're all over it. Let me go eat it. Cats are like, ew. They want a fresh kill, and they want their water to be very fresh, and that's why so often we see, you know, like, you turn on the sink and your cat jumps up there and he wants to drink from and I've had clients who say, I have to leave my sink dripping all the time because that's the only way my cat will drink. He jumps up there and drinks from the dripping faucet. So even my Barn Cats, they have a bowl of water now, there's water troughs everywhere, there's buckets everywhere that they have plenty of access, but they have their own water bowl, and it's a really wide, flat bowl so their whiskers aren't hitting, because that's another biggie for cats, But they will only drink out of it right after I change it, so twice a day, I'm scrubbing out that bowl and giving them fresh water, and that's the only time I will ever see them drink, is if it's very fresh. And even that, out of seven cats, one might come over and get a drink. They're on a raw diet. They're on a high moisture diet. And that's, that's what if you see your cat hanging out at the water bowl all the time, there's something really wrong. They just don't, they just don't do that. So, so that's something to keep in mind, like, if your cat is hanging out at the water bowl. Let's get some blood work.
Dr. Angie Krause 22:43
Absolutely. Let's check those kidneys, check that thyroid.
Dr. Judy Morgan 22:47
So one of the things that goes along with the chronic kidney disease that we see in these cats, very commonly, we can have hypertension or high blood pressure, and if we think about that, the kidneys are a filtering organ, so the liver filters, and the kidneys filter. That's how we get toxins out of the body. And so if you've got this little filter under think of it filter under your sink, filtering your water. And if the water is turned on at such a high, you know, like, you think pressure washing through that filter, you're going to blow the filter apart, you're going to cause problems, you're going to leak protein into the urine, going to cause all kinds of issues. So hypertension, I think, is often overlooked in these cats with kidney disease. blood pressure is not checked nearly often enough
Dr. Angie Krause 23:43
The minute your cat gets diagnosed with kidney disease, even if it's stage one, stage two, I want you to be advocating for their blood pressure to be checked every six months. Hypertension is silent in cats, and usually the first symptom we see is when it's become so high they have blown out the back of their retinas, and they're just suddenly blind. And so this is the best thing you can do to prevent hypertension, and then if we find it, it's really treatable. And so I don't want anyone to be afraid to find out that her cat is hypertensive, because we can that's one thing we can treat pretty easily,
Dr. Judy Morgan 24:19
and a lot of times we can do it with things like acupuncture and herbs and dietary changes. There's a lot of things we can do, besides more medication for your cat, but really important to know whether you have that going on. Now, couple of tricks with that. Cats are pretty stressed going to the vet office, so you just put them in a box, rattled them around, shook them banged against your leg, rattled around in the backseat of the car. They're pretty stressed when they get there, and then they're in a strange environment, with strange people, strange smells, barking dogs, not a whole lot of fun. Now, the good news is veterinarians are used to doing blood pressures on animals that are in like, white coat syndrome, so we can kind of tell, like, are we up in the stratosphere, or are we, like, Yeah, that's probably just a little stress from the visit. But what I would recommend, if you're taking your cat in and you want their blood pressure checked, first of all, get them used to their carrier. At home, I leave carriers sitting out. My cats can walk it like my my barn cat that I had to put in the carrier and take to the vet the other day, he walked right in, and he was like, okay, because he didn't associate it with something bad. So, and then when you get to the veterinary office, once you're in the exam room and you're in that quiet area, let your cat come out of the carrier and just walk around. Don't try to manhandle them right away, just kind of let them explore. really interesting the vet practice up the street from me, the guy would never let people take their cats out of the carriers. Their exam was done well, what little bit they got in the carrier and all injections, he would just scruff them inside the carrier and poke them. And so people would come to my office, and the first thing we do is open the door and let them come out and walk around and sit in our sunny windowsill, and people will be like, Oh, I'm so sorry. He's out of the carrier. I'm like, Well, how am I supposed to do anything with him in the carrier? So get your cats used to the carrier, so it's not like this stressful thing. Be very careful when you're carrying the carrier that you're not swinging it, banging it, making all this noise. Don't play rock and roll in the car on the way there. Play something that's a little more soothing. There actually is Cat music through a cat's ear. It's very screechy, by the way. It does like it's very different. Look up. Cat music through a dog's ear is very soothing through a cat's ear. It's totally it's really weird. I had a friend who's a musician who found that for me, and she played me the cat music. And I was like, but anyway, if you have, if you can get the cat music, play that so that you're and you know, you can use pheromone diffusers, whatever, spray a little lavender in the car, something to just kind of make things calming. And then when you get there, don't let them manhandle them right away. Let them kind of just chill and calm, relax. And then the blood pressure should be the first thing you do. Don't do it after you got blood, after you gave injections. You know, all the other things that need to be done, blood pressure first. And a lot of times we we would do it on the tail. So the cats are like, yeah, or a back leg. And so they're, they're not too stressed out. But anyway, it's very, very critical to ask for that. And not all practices do it. Shoot, we're going to run out of time. The The other thing, we can do this for hours. The other thing too, if your cat is diagnosed with any kind of early kidney disease, make sure the thyroid is checked, because so and especially if we have hypertension, because so often all those things go together. So we've got hyperthyroid, we've got kidney disease, we've got hypertension, we need to be addressing all of them.
Dr. Angie Krause 27:51
Absolutely, they do all go together. So you want to make sure every six months after your cat turns, I would say even 10 your veterinarian's checking a T4 sometimes when veterinarians run things in house, or they're getting results back that day, they're not always checking a t4 and I'm always surprised how many records I'm getting where a t4 hasn't been checked. And so it needs to happen every six months
Dr. Judy Morgan 28:15
Especially an old cat. And if your cats go outside, you should check them for viral diseases a couple times a year as well. Like my cat that was sick last week. I was like, and can you please run the viral stuff too, which was all negative, but he just had a nice fever, so which he's back to normal now, and running around and eating and happy, happy, happy. you know, and I didn't do anything magical, you know. We gave him some anti inflammatories and some fluids, and the vet wanted to put him on antibiotics because his white cell count was bottomed out. It was like 2000 and he had, like, no neutrophils. And she's like, we need to put them on antibiotics. And I said, and this is kind of weird for me, being on the other side of the table, because I don't have a license to practice where I live now. And she's like, we have to put him on antibiotics. I said, Nope. I said, I don't need antibiotic resistance. Antibiotics are not going to do a darn thing for that fever. They're not going to do anything for the viral infection that I know it is. so I'm going to decline. And I said, if I feel like I need it, you know, if he develops like thick yellow snot or, you know, something like that, I'll be back. But right now, we're good. And so he did fine. So stick by your guns, Angie, you are amazing. I love what you're doing with the cats. I love your cat pictures in the background too. Those are awesome. So where can people find out more about you?
Dr. Angie Krause 29:43
You can go to NaturalCatVet.com and I'm on Instagram @NaturalCatVet, and Facebook, and, yeah, we'd love to have you.
Dr. Judy Morgan 29:53
And you also have courses on Natural Cat Vet, right?
Dr. Angie Krause 29:56
Yes, and if you use the promo code DRJUDY you can get 50% off any course of your choosing.
Dr. Judy Morgan 30:03
Wow, that's, that's an amazing offer. Thank you so much for that, and thank you for all you're doing for being a voice for our kitty cats. Because we don't have enough voices for the kitties that I love my cats, they're I go back and forth. You know, sometimes I have 10 cats, sometimes I have 10 dogs,
Dr. Judy Morgan 30:19
sometimes I have 10 of both, and it's really a little crazy.
Dr. Angie Krause 30:23
Well, the future is feline. I strongly believe that.
Dr. Judy Morgan 30:27
There you go. Thank you very much.
Dr. Angie Krause
Thank you.
OUTRO
Thanks for listening to another great Naturally Healthy Pets episode. Be sure to check out the show notes for some helpful links. And if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. We value your feedback and we'd love to hear from you on how we're doing. Visit DrJudyMorgan.com for healthy product recommendations, comprehensive courses, upcoming events and other fantastic resources. Until next time, keep giving your pet the vibrant life they deserve.
DISCLAIMER
The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Dr. Judy and her guests express their own views, experience and conclusions. Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets neither endorses or opposes any particular view discussed here.
