Intro 0:00
Welcome to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. Let's get to it.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Hello everyone. I'm Dr Judy Morgan, your host of the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. My guest today is Angie Winters, author of Don't Train Your Dog. That's a great title. She's the CEO of Parenting for Dogs, and has been a dog parenting coach and social entrepreneur for over 25 years. Her unique approach, focused on dog emotion and effective communication, has helped countless dogs once deemed unfixable by traditional trainers. Angie's mission is to create a world where dogs are better understood and valued, improving the lives of both dogs and their parents. And our topic today is forget dog training. The key to happiness and good behavior is parenting. Angie, thank you so much for being my guest today.
Angie Winters
Thank you for having me
Dr. Judy Morgan 0:57
so I think this is a really interesting topic. Years and years ago, when I was an associate in a veterinary practice, we decided that we would hire a dog trainer to do weekly classes, and we did it in the backyard at our clinic. And we thought, well, this would be great. You know, we see so many behavior problems, and as we all know, training a dog is really about training the dog parent.
Dr. Judy Morgan 1:27
Dogs are pretty trainable, but you know, if you have no clue what you're doing and you're doing it all wrong, which I will say in the veterinary community, before we started the fear free and doing some better handling methods with them, it was always about what we called brewdocaine, you know, just pinning them down and, you know, forcing them into submitting to what we wanted. And with over 36 years in practice, I can tell you, that's not the best way to do things. And when you can actually work with them instead of against them,
Dr Judy Morgan 2:00
life is a lot easier for everyone involved.
Angie Winters
A peaceful life is what you want,
Dr. Judy Morgan
right, exactly, and so, and you know, I know very little about dog training. And you know, people ask me for advice, I think you are really asking the wrong person that it is not my forte. I can untrain any dog. I'm I'm really good at it
Angie Winters 2:21
now that comes easy to humans. Untraining dogs comes easy.
Dr. Judy Morgan
It does. And so I have two youngsters who are just the they're three years old now, they're 10 pounds each, but they are just the rowdiest, craziest kind of obnoxious.
Dr. Judy Morgan 2:36
But we took them to a puppy class at the age of two, and it made such a difference just having someone explain to us like, No, this is how you need to ask them to do what you want them to do. And so one of my favorite things that I say now is we are asking our dogs to live in our world and follow our rules when they are so against what the natural instinct or natural behavior of the dog would be.
Dr. Judy Morgan 3:03
So how do you kind of walk us through a little bit, you know, how you kind of work with these dogs, and what, what are we focusing on? Because obviously we're not focusing on pounding them into submission.
Angie Winters
Right. So how I'm how I most like usually describe it is what you said is correct. We are asking them to live in our world now with us, and we know how capable dogs are, I mean, and I explain in the in the don't train your dog book, and it's, it's, it's titled that for a reason. It's not a play on words. It really is a completely different mindset when you have them as a family member. And so we're asking this, this family member that is born just like kids are born with different temperaments and, you know, different you know, acclimations to different things, and they like different things. They're drawn to different things. This is basically the equivalent of having a two year old child that you're asking to live in in a world that you're not completely and you're not effectively teaching them how to live in this world, which is what we do with our kids. But we're not doing that with dogs, because we keep on flipping to this training mindset of sit, stay, wait, you know, and those things are not what matters in family life. What matters in family life is, don't bite kids, don't don't no aggression, don't run out the door without being told. So that you run in front of a car, you know it. Those are the things that are important. No aggression around food. So instead of concentrating on those, we're trying to do that with these basically commands that are asking them to do tricks for treats. Right? They do because they're super smart. But when you think about it, you know, they're very capable. And if we were all living naked in the woods, they would be more capable of taking care of themselves than than us, navigate that environment more easily than us, and we'd be asking them for help. But now we're bringing them into the all this environment we create, especially a modern society, a modern you know. High rise or a subdivision, and we're asking them to live in this without effectively giving them the guidance they need to learn how to navigate that. So it's not about having a
Angie Winters 5:13
just like it's not about having a robotic kid or a perfectly behaved kid. It's about having safety and having everybody get along. And so when you when you flip to that kind of mindset instead of this typical dog training, be it all super positive meaning very permissive or very restrictive meaning harsh obedience, neither one of those works, because you're thinking still in an animal training mindset, and you're trying to put this animal training onto a family member who's born emotionally and intellectually intertwined with you already.
Dr. Judy Morgan 5:47
right. So what's, what's, what's the main difference between parenting kids and parenting dogs?
Angie Winters
so basically, understanding where they're coming from. But one of the main difference is timing. So as you know that timing is, you know, dogs can only understand their guidance, and it needs to be given to them in a way that they naturally understand. So you have to mimic that in your family life, just like you how you have to adjust how you give guidance to children. You have to adjust how you give it to dogs. And it needs to be in the moment that they're actually feeling this thing, or slightly before they get ready to feel that thing. So you learn a little bit of simple body language, you know, which i i do help people just learn just some simple body combinations, not this complicated dog language chart, you know, memorize this. You know, there's so many of those dog language charts. Just memorize simple things. Like, you know, you see a stiffness. You see it, you know, one paw, one front paw lifted, is unsure. You know, just simple things that they do that you if you're actually looking at them and paying attention, you can see it coming. So that's super effective. But whether you see it coming or not, it still has to be addressed. And the reason why most parents don't address it is because they've tried all this dog training stuff and then it didn't work. And so they're like, well, he's just, you know, you have a super aggressive dog, or you have a super over anxious dog. And those things are true, but, but they get worse when you're trying to thinking, you know, the best way to describe it is when parents come in and they have a new dog, or any dog, and they teach it to sit for a treat, and they're like, Oh, look how smart he is. Look how fast he learned that. This is great. This is working. And then it really goes off the rails when they're because they're trying to use that same thing to teach them not to bite a kid.
Dr. Judy Morgan 7:32
So what? What kind of I'm assuming you're working more in positive reinforcement, kind of steering them in the right direction. So if somebody came to you with an aggressive dog, so for instance, my my little Rugrats, they're just so bad they I have a four year old granddaughter, and she comes in and these two, and unfortunately, she usually comes bursting through the door, running at full speed, very loud. So you know, in their mind, they're like, ooh, prey drive.
Dr. Judy Morgan 8:07
We are going for this thing. And then the more I escalate screaming, stop running. Everybody runs faster and harder.
Angie Winters 8:17
Because so what I teach more than that see is to, first of all, you see these scenarios coming, right? You know, you know she's coming over. So a lot of times, especially a new dog that's learning, and they learn fast, the way that when you're not concentrating on dog training, when you I've developed recipes, because I've been doing this for 28 or more years, and I didn't intend on doing this. I fell into it, and by working with the worst of the worst rescue dogs. And then I realized that the reason why it's mostly going off the rails is because of this, you know, dog training mentality. But I do use treats. I use everything. Is very positive, but I do strike a balance, you know, a very good balance of firm but supportive guidance. So I'm firm about the rules. You know, you have a firm number of rules. I'm firm about those. Those never waver. But I have, I've developed recipes to make it as easy as possible for parents, because if you don't have these tools, you can't do it. You're already you can't just fall upon the situation and go wait when that happens. Just don't panic, you know, don't beat yourself up about it. Just, you know, get your recipe and get your tools, and then you'll be ready to approach it the next time. So it's not like dogs are ruined immediately because you've missed a moment, but what you want to do is always be looking for this moment, and it just becomes second nature, like brushing your teeth, you're just always watching and or you see something and you're like, Oh, I see his mind going there. So his emotions. So you're basically, you know, you need to make them feel safe, and you need to make them understand that this little child running running by or screaming, or you're desensitizing each of those noise. Of course, that's, you know, people understand that in typical dog training. But you got to go another step further and and indicate to them what's that? That's no big deal. Like you have to have it in your mind, that's nobody What's that kid doing?
Angie Winters 10:00
That's no. Big deal, right? You don't ask. You don't escalate it up with your tone of voice. Then you call it down first, like in the what's not allowed recipe, for example, in the book, you say you see the moment coming, or you see the moment happening. Here's how you address the moment, disagreeing with that in a way that a dog understands by nature, you know. So you're you're assimilating Mother Nature's guidance in your in the recipe, you make it very clear, we don't do that.
Angie Winters 10:27
And then get the eye contact for a minute. Because if they, if you just try to do that distraction with a treat, it's just like, they're just like, you know? So, yeah, you gotta,
Dr. Judy Morgan
I mean, a small, screaming child running by at like a streak of lightning is much more interesting than any treat, I can tell you that
Angie Winters
That dies off fast dice, so you can't for the what's not loud recipe, you don't involve any treats in it, okay? But you use your voice and your facial expressions and your tone of voice, body language, right? But you do it in a certain order. First you see the moment, then you address it, block it, get the eye contact. Hold it for like, one, 1000 so that they so that it sinks in. They they can't just go from one thing to another, this exciting things, so let it sink in. You know, you kind of set up the scenario where they have to eventually look at you. When they look at you for a second, you're like, ah, we don't do that. And then you're like, but here's what we can do over here. But if you don't have that teaching moment in the middle where they're getting that eye contact for a moment. You don't have that teaching moment, and you just go to, here's what you do instead. It just goes from excitement to excitement, the excitement of the child, excitement to the thing. I'm trying to tell you, it's it's finding that teaching moment. So that's what all the recipes are about, is here's how you get attention moment when a kid's around, here's how you get the and it goes into create recipe and everything. There's a recipe for all the things you want to teach that are important in family life. And then there's prescriptions of fixing, for fixing the things that are broken, for a lack of a better word. But dogs are so resilient. It's amazing how quickly they respond to this. And when people try these, this type of thing I'm talking about in my recipes, they're like, that's that that happened too fast, like, that's like magic. That can't be real because you're so used to this laborious trying to do this dog training over and over.
Angie Winters 12:11
If you're doing something four times and it's not working with a dog, it's never going to work, right? But you're just constantly wearing yourself out doing this thing instead of you got to switch to something that actually does work with them.
Dr. Judy Morgan 12:22
I love this, and I love the fact that you've, you know, it's sort of a cookbook. Look, here's the recipes, and here's how you fix it, here's how you put it all together. We're going to take a break to hear from our sponsor. We'll be back in just a few minutes. Stay tuned.
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Dr. Judy Morgan 13:51
Welcome back. I'm Dr Judy Morgan, and you're listening to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. My guest today, Angie Winters, is the author of Don't Train Your Dog, which is an amazing title. And I'm actually going to run out and get this book, because I have some issues with some of my little fur children.
Dr. Judy Morgan 14:11
And you know, they're sweet as can be, and I love them to death, but there are a lot of things that I wish we could do a little bit differently, and I love this method of what she's talking about. So one of your recipes is, there's a perfect potty recipe, which I assume has to do with house training. And I love that, and I could use that recipe for sure, the comforting crate.
Dr. Judy Morgan 14:36
I'm a huge fan of crate training and having my dogs be comfortable in a crate, as a matter of fact, sitting right next to my desk in my studio is a small crate. Yesterday, I brought one of my little obnoxious ones with me, and he just crawled in that crate and curled up and went to sleep and was just sweet and wonderful. And some people say it's cruel to use crates.
Dr Judy Morgan 15:00
But what I have found is that for my dogs, all of them, even my rescue, my puppy mill dogs who grew up in crates. And a lot of people who rescue puppy mill dogs say, Oh, I would never put them back in a crate. They spent their whole life in a crate. What I have found with mine is that that is their place of comfort, because that is where they lived. And so I had the first puppy mill dog that I ever rescued. When I would leave the house and just leave her loose, she would go into panic, just race around the house. There would be poop, there would be pee. She was just beside herself. And so I got a crate, and I left the door open, and what I found was that when I would leave, she would go in the crate and curl up back in the corner, and then was felt very secure there. So talk about crate training. If somebody has a dog, they've never used a crate for they want to do. I mean, if you think about it, you wouldn't leave your toddler alone in the house to get into trouble. Dogs are kind of the same way that once, once, the once they're comfortable, they can be left alone. But how do you go about getting a dog used to a crate if you've never done it?
Angie Winters 16:12
So most of the dogs, all the dogs that I've worked with, which are, you know, hundreds and hundreds, have come from really bad situations, or even just from people's homes that they already hate crates, right? They're already terrified of crates. And the reason why they're terrified of crates is not from anything that they have internally, naturally, it's because of what has been happening with either the dog training attempts to get them to get in the crate, or parents panics attempts to get them to in the crate, or that people incorrectly believe that they are a cage. So I agree with you, it is a comforting space, but just because we feel that way doesn't mean every dog will feel that way because of their past experiences. But again, the beauty of dog is, if you give them the right information, very quickly, they're so resilient. So over the years, I just kept refining and refining, and refining, and all of a sudden I realized, you know what, no matter what this dog comes in with, be it all different spectrum of problems that I've used this constant, these certain techniques that they I've come up with that they end up making them choose the crate themselves. And that is the key. It makes all the difference in the world, isn't you have to now, I set it up till they have no choice but to choose it, right? But they don't know that. They don't know that. I just know that they're going to choose it because I set up the parameters, right? It takes about three days you want to say you kind of try to try to be home or have somebody who can substitute for you. You cannot put this dog in the crate or close the door before they're ready, right? So I have this techniques where I leave the door open, I create this area that's safe,
Angie Winters 17:45
and then you do these repetitions of where I this dog believes that this crate, this crate doesn't even exist to me. This crate is an object in the room. It's, might as well be the couch. It has nothing to do with me, because they're so tied to your emotion, I act like I don't care whether they go in that crate or not. Right now I'm sneaking looks and I'm throwing little, tiny, high value things in there as I walk by, just like I don't even know that's a crate. I'm just having to be dropping something in there when I walk by, when you tie no emotion to it, and you follow this recipe where it controls all the things, the same with the potty. It controls all the elements, so that it just happens naturally. And pretty soon the dog chooses to get in the crate by itself and chooses that as its bed and its safe place. So my dog sleeps with me in my bed, and I've had all spectrum of dogs. Some of them didn't want to sleep in the bed, but whether they sleep in the bed or not, it's important to work the comforting crate recipe in the in the beginning, so that you always have that and that you always keep that to be a good place, because it comes in handy for a lot of things. For anytime they feel uncomfortable, no children are allowed around this. They're they're invisible when they're in there, for a dog to feel like it's completely at rest, and he has to believe that he's off duty and invisible, and you have to make it like this den is your invisible place. So anytime you need comfort, they go in there. Children are not allowed to talk to them. You know, if people are like, Oh, I don't want to ignore them, because I'll make them feel bad. But that's a that's a fallacy, because what they want the most, especially insecure dogs, is not to be stared at or looked at. So in order to convey with your emotion, I don't care whether you get in this crate or not up to you if you choose it, but they will with the recipe
Dr. Judy Morgan
I do all the time. Yeah, I have one crate in my living room, and I have four dogs, and it's sort of, they take turns, like it's my turn to go in there. And I've the two little crazy ones, they'll go in together, and it's just like, we're just gonna go in there and snuggle and chill out for a little while. Yeah? And it's but if I try to put them in there, no way. But they will choose to go in. No problem,
Angie Winters
right. Well, the working this crate recipe, they will you can put them in it at the end of the recipe that's you're working towards that. So by the end of the, say, the third day, or happens faster with some dogs, then I do, I can say it's time for bed.
Angie Winters 20:00
And they'll Go in there and it'll close it. But you can't trick them. You know that this this recipe that leads up to it. I'm never tricking them. I'm never shutting the door behind their back or when they're asleep. It's like, you we just need to be straightforward with these. You know how dogs believe like, whatever the routine is that we're fine with, once they were a routine that they pick up, they're like, really want to do the same stuff in the same order, with the same at the same time every time. That's what these recipes rely on. And once they believe it's the routine, because they've decided theirself, it's the routine, there's no fighting them. There's no There's none of this back and forth fighting. It's not this terrible thing about the crate or about going potty. It just happens naturally because they've believed that's how we do it.
Dr. Judy Morgan 20:39
Very, very cool. So you have something called a fear thermometer. What's that?
Angie Winters
So over the years, I just, you know, because I've done typical dog training. I mean, I've trained dogs for television and social media and, you know, tricks and stuff, all that stuff is fun and and, and I'm not disparaging that it just doesn't teach dogs the family skills needed for life to so that they can be happy and not lose their homes, frankly, or nobody get injured, right? So it's very important information.
Angie Winters 21:07
So the fear thermometer, I realized that I kept from a dog training standpoint, I was like, how do you cure fear? How do you cure this fear? Because sometimes a little bit of treats would work with something make it a little bit better over a long period of time, sometimes distraction might help, but a lot of times, at higher levels, it didn't help at all, and they think sometimes made it worse. So I started just keeping track of every,
Angie Winters 21:29
you know, every, every behavior and what preceded it, and what worked on what and what. And so then finally, I realized that despite there being a large, unlimited amount of things a dog can be afraid of, because dogs can be afraid of anything, they just happen. So just happens upon in the in daily life, that there's only three levels of resulting fear. And so then I made a prescription to cure each level of fear. So one prescription is for and it gives the symptoms on the thermometer. So if your dog fits into these symptoms, then he's you're at this level. If he fits into this you're at, you're at the first level, which is afraid, if it fits into the third level, and then it's terrified. So this is important, because the rest are the prescriptions are different for those because if they're terrified, no treats will work. You can't use those things, so they need a prescription for each one. So there's either on the thermometer, your dog either fits into, unsure which you see the symptoms of. You know that the paw up in the front, like we were talking about, you know, different body language at that moment. You you apply that prescription so the fear never develops. Then you have level, a regular level of being afraid. So where they're afraid of something, they'll still take some treats, you know, they'll move away from it, but they'll move away slower. You can still use a recipe that involves treats at the end, when the fear is over, and then terrified. It's just a prescription of you can't use anything else except your relationship with them. And then you walk them through this fear, and then end it on a good note. Everything has to end on a good note. Anything that ends on a good note with a dog will not develop into something else. So you just learn how to end everything on a good note,
Dr. Judy Morgan 23:01
which is so important and it's interesting, because I have a lot of Equine beings living on my farm, and the donkeys, the horses.
Dr. Judy Morgan 23:12
One bad thing happens,
Angie Winters
I want a donkey.
Dr. Judy Morgan
I have wanted them my whole life. Finally got them three years ago. They're the best animals ever. But and one bad thing happens to them, they remember it for their entire life. Good things that happen over and over and over. It's going to take you a while for them to, you know, trust that that is a good thing.
Dr. Judy Morgan 23:34
And I think we, we don't realize that so much in our dogs, but I think it's the same exact thing
Angie Winters
we had a do it with the dog. Sorry, you can't undo those fears with a dog, as long as you walk through the prescription, it's very logical. Actually, when you you got to remove human emotion from it in order to apply the it's not that I don't care. It's just that this is what my toddler needs from me right now, right? So you can, I can do that for five minutes. I can even fake it for five minutes to walk them through this recipe for their good, because you don't want them to live with fear. And then with dogs, I've noticed that when one fear develops, another one will come quicker, another one will come quicker, and then pretty soon, you know, so it's very important to undo those you have to slay all the monsters in your dog's world.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Exactly, we had a I had a patient who had been hit by a car, and so the dog broke a bunch of bones, had to have multiple orthopedic surgeries, and the surgeries were not done at my clinic. And he actually was not even seen at my clinic when he was hit by a car. He was seen at the emergency service, but that dog every time she had to bring him for anything, the minute she pulled in our parking lot. He knew he was at a vet clinic. We could hear that dog screaming from the car, you know, and just and the entire time you'd be in the clinic, he would just scream and scream and scream. It took so long for us to literally bribe him.
Dr. Judy Morgan 25:00
calm him, you know, it took years. And finally he was able to walk in the clinic without, you know, because it's not a place where he was coming all the time. And we even, we even offered her, which she did take advantage of. We said, Look, just come every day, just walk in the front door, sit in the waiting room, calmly, feed him treats, pat him whatever it takes. And so he came enough times that he finally said, Oh, I don't get hurt every time I walk in this door, So we did that with a lot of our fearful dogs. We would just tell people, Look, just come sit in the waiting room, you know, in a calm, quiet corner, and, you know, read a book for 20 minutes while your dog just hangs out.
Dr. Judy Morgan 25:42
It worked really, really well for these dogs to figure out, oh, I don't get manhandled and poked and prodded every time I walk in the door. You know, receptionists were the receptionists were always loaded with lots of treats and goodies and, you know, good smells, but that it takes time to do that, to get through that fear. And it sounds like you've got some recipes where maybe we could get through it faster, which would be great for these people. Because, for a lot of people and their dogs, a trip to the groomer, a trip to the veterinary office, a trip even in the car,
Dr. Judy Morgan 26:22
can be very, very traumatic for them. And one of the reasons I really like crate training is if I travel with my dogs, I can take a crate with me, and they're very comfortable, and I feel really uncomfortable leaving them in a hotel room, not confined, because you never know who's going to walk in the door. My dogs are trained not to run out the door, but you just never know who might open that door and leave it open,
Angie Winters
right? It's still a toddler, you know. No matter, and in our world, they effectively remain perpetual toddlers, you know. So yeah, but I agree with you and, but I've just developed prescription that will happen faster with the fear like you can walk us through, because there's a few elements you can add to it, because,
Angie Winters 27:01
and I've had to learn to learn to cure fear very quickly, because by the time a dog would get to me, it's gone through every trainer. It's gone it's on nine kind of medications. It's through every behaviorist. It's through everything, and it gets to me at the last thing. But then I can even cure a puppy mill dog or a feral dog that has not cannot be touched by humans. I can do that in one week, and I've done it over and over and over. Too much to be a coincidence, right? And I've documented it so that other people can do it. So that's the whole the whole thing that's been behind it is I just need, I need everybody to be able to do it, so that these dogs can live without fear.
Dr. Judy Morgan
There's only one of you to go around, and you can't train the millions of dogs that are out there with problems.
Angie Winters 27:40
that's why we have the book.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Don't train your dog. I love it. So Angie has a special offer for the first two listeners who reach out to her via the contact form on her website, https://parenting4dogs.com/. Parentingfordogs.com
Dr. Judy Morgan 27:54
she'll give away two free books, which also includes access to the digital companion. And you'll need to mention that you heard about her on this podcast, so that will all be in the show notes, along with her social media and website, parentingfordogs.com she has tons of information on her website, Videos, downloads that come with the book. I strongly recommend reaching out and if you have a problem child that you would like to learn how to live in your world with a little more peace and ease, I would highly recommend Don't Train Your Dog, Angie. Thank you very much for being my guest today.
Angie Winters
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Outro
Thanks for listening to another great Naturally Healthy Pets episode. Be sure to check out the show notes for some helpful links. And if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. We value your feedback and we'd love to hear from you on how we're doing. Visit DrJudyMorgan.com for healthy product recommendations, comprehensive courses, upcoming events and other fantastic resources. Until next time, keep giving your pet the vibrant life they deserve.
DISCLAIMER
The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Dr. Judy and her guests express their own views, experience and conclusions. Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets neither endorses or opposes any particular view discussed here.
