Dr. Judy Morgan 0:00
I was, for many years, one of the veterinarians who said, Don't ever take your dog to a dog park. They're going to get hurt. They're going to get sick. You've changed my mind a lot now that I've seen what a good dog park looks like. And we're gonna, we're gonna really dive deep into what is a good dog park. Who should go, who shouldn't go, what you need to do when you're there.
Dr. Judy Morgan
Hello everyone. Welcome to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast. I'm your host. Dr Judy Morgan, my guest today is someone who's become a good friend, John Sarver. We know he's a good friend because he's got my phone number and he texts me about 20 times a week. So John is a specialist in designing pet wellness products and dog parks. His leadership in dog exercise and pet fitness is a natural extension of his passions for exercising outdoors and for animals, particularly dogs. He has owned and cared for six dogs and has led a team that has helped develop 1000s of dog parks in North America. He believes in constant innovation to push the limits of the products and pet amenities. John, thank you so much for being my guest today. So this is dog parks and doggy daycare. Dog group play settings is actually a fairly controversial topic, and I was for many years, one of the veterinarians who said, Don't ever take your dog to a dog park. They're going to get hurt, they're going to get sick, it's going to be a bad experience. And I spent a lot of years patching together dogs who got hurt in dog parks. And so there are still many, many professionals who are absolutely against dog parks. But I think when my mind really changed, well, you've changed my mind a lot now that I've seen what a good dog park looks like, and we're gonna, we're gonna really dive deep into what is a good dog park. Who should go, who shouldn't go? What you need to do when you're there. But my daughter, when she moved here to Raleigh, lived in a very tiny, little one bedroom apartment, and she called me one day and said, I just adopted a dog, and she had had a small Cavalier when she lived in New Jersey, so when she said, I adopted an 80 pound something from North Carolina, and I said, in your little, tiny apartment, you're gonna have an 80 pound dog, which was good. She kind of lived in a rough neighborhood. I was glad she had a big dog, maybe a little bit of protection. But what do you do with an 80 pound dog in a one bedroom apartment? And the only place where she could let that dog off leash was in the dog park that was at the apartment complex. Unfortunately, that dog park was kind of the image of the bad dog park, and we're going to talk about that, but it literally was a chain link fence and a little bit of space where the dog could at least race around a little bit off leash. So let's talk about first, I want to talk about your company. It's the Dog Park Company and Gyms for Dogs. What? What exactly do you do? What does that encompass?
John Sarver 3:11
We design and help developers design and build dog parks in the United States. We work with a lot of landscape contractors and playground distributors and putting these parks together.
Dr. Judy Morgan 3:31
I've seen your parks, and they are, are really, really cool. How did you get started designing dog parks and dog park equipment? Because you've got some unique innovations in a lot of your pieces of equipment. We'll get into those a little bit. But how did you get started in that?
John Sarver 3:46
Yeah, thanks the Thank you, by the way. And the pictures I send you are always good things and bad things at the dog parks. Today, I sent her a picture of a water fountain like I'd never seen before. But what happened was, three dogs ago, this is Maggie, and then I had Ellie, and then Elsa. So three dogs ago, I started working out with my dog. I was in the fitness industry for a long time designing fitness centers for hotels and apartments and and so you kind of, you know, when you're around it all day, you kind of get sick of it. So I was like, I gotta find another, another way to exercise, because I'm, you know, around fitness equipment all day. So started doing things with my dog. That was Elsa at the time, a black female lab, Maggie, black female lab, and then I had Ellie between those two black female labs. So, but Elsa kind of pushed, started pushing the limits for me, and I was living down in Georgia, so we had a lot of inclines down there. And. And just started, she really pushed me, you know, and when you're, when you're in a gym, working out or something, you don't, you know, you don't have that push unless you have a trainer or exercise partner. So it was real interesting, what started happening there. And with Elsa, it was mostly just working out outdoors. We didn't get into the equipment side of it yet, it was Ellie that brought that into play. And Ellie was a beautiful black female, just like Maggie and just like Elsa, but Ellie liked to be challenged by obstacles. And I noticed, started noticing early, when I first got her, started noticing she liked to climb on things and do balancing type exercises. And I was living in Indiana at the time, and we would get the, you know, when they would shovel the snow, that some of the piles would be 15-20 feet tall. And I just noticed she was just there was nothing she didn't want to try to do. So together, we started doing that together, and we some of the pieces that I've designed. One particular piece is always jump balance beam. It actually emulates a construction, a retaining wall in a development. And if you put the piece next to the retaining wall, it's exactly that. And still, to this day, she she goes on the retaining wall. When we go on a bike, I go on a bike ride with her, and while she's attached to my bike, she goes up the same wall that Ellie did. So we just started pushing the limits. And with my background in exercise I knew that we had to, you know, you want to be a little bit more aggressive with the with the activities. So our products are, our products are designed to get the dogs to I call it passive exercise. They're playing. It's like children playing on playground. They're playing, but same time, they're using most of their muscle groups, there are incline and decline. We've got balance beams. We got jump hurdles. So we are trying to get them to it's much, much more exercise than a flat walk on a leash,. So they're climbing, they're jumping, socializing and all that. So we put together a line of equipment, and I can't slow down. I just keep seems like every time I say, That's it, we're done. Then something else comes up. And so we continue to develop. We develop maybe two, about two products a year, that process from thinking it out and then planning it and getting it to market usually takes me about a year. So I try to do one or two a year. During covid, when everything kind of slowed up, we really developed, I think is like four products during, like about a 24 month period. It was, it allowed me to really put some products out there that like Ellie's jump balance beam and Ellie's boulder bridge and some of those products, they were in my head, but we couldn't do anything about it because we were busy. But then covid, we slowed up enough where we got those out there.
Dr. Judy Morgan 8:14
So you have 1000s you've put in or designed 1000s of parks across the US. Who's buying those where are they going? Is it just in towns? Or who buys a dog park? Or who, who wants to build a dog park? And why?
John Sarver 8:29
Yeah, great question. I have a great team of people that help me do all this stuff too. So, but yeah, so the dog parks, our primary customers are municipalities, multifamily developers, single family developers, doggy daycares, veterinarians, shelters, and that's kind of the main and then you know, we'll see, we'll get the the outliers, a car dealership, we had A tattoo parlor, we you know, we'll get the outliers. Those are always fun to get, but our core businesses, those markets I just told you,
Dr. Judy Morgan 9:09
yeah, and there's so much building is going on around here since we moved here a few years ago, I can't believe how many developments have gone in, and a lot of them are sort of multi stage developments, where it's apartments and then townhomes and then single family homes, but every one of those communities is putting in a dog park as one of the amenities. And unfortunately, I've yet to see a good one in one of these communities. And I think that's, you know, there's just a lot of education. And I, you know, your group is out there educating people all the time at different conferences, trying to get people to understand, and that's part of what we've we're trying to focus on as well to get rid of that negative attitude. Like I used to have with dog parks. It's, it's an education process, just like we've, you know, had to have an education process around vaccines and chemicals and food and all the other things that we talk about. I think if we can have a good education discussion about the benefits of dog parks and what's good and what's bad, then I think we can make some big inroads with that negative thinking. So talk about who goes to dog parks. And I know you've got some statistics, because you've put together a really amazing survey to ask people questions. So who goes to dog parks? How often do they go, and why do they go?
John Sarver 10:39
Yeah, so who goes to dog parks? I could we our survey just kind of rattles some of the things off. The average age of a dog in a dog park is six years of age. 72% of the people come to dog parks have one dog. 21% have two dogs. Sometimes they'll bring the second dog, sometimes they won't. The dogs are pretty evenly split up. We've got 30% are small, 30% are medium, 30% are large. Only about 10% based on our survey, only about 10% of the dogs are over 90 pounds. Energy level is a big driver in getting people to the dog park, that's why you see the average age is six. So from from the our surveys show that energy level is one of the driving factors to get to the dog park, not necessarily the reason they go, but a big driving factor. 82% of the people in dog parks consider their dogs part of their family, and 80%
Dr. Judy Morgan 11:46
What's wrong with the other 18%?
John Sarver 11:52
And 80% had stated that owning a dog is rewarding. About 55% of the population. I think it would be higher, but our survey shows that 55% of people say that their dog is calming to them. So if you've had a bad day at work, we've had some, you know, some just flat out amazing people in the dog parks that have gone through some major events, and the first place they go is the dog park. And I've been there. I've been there when someone got a text about a divorce or someone going through chemotherapy, they're right there in the dog park. When my mother passed away, first place I went was a dog park with her, just to I was hoping nobody would be there. And I met a gentleman, met a gentleman there that was going through some some medical stuff himself. He was an older gentleman, and we're still friends today, but it's kind of funny. We both went to same place at same time. We found, the surveys found that there's four types of owners, dog owners. There's an engaged owner, a routine owner, a passive or casual type ownership, and then the cautious type ownership.
John Sarver 13:06
And the income. When we looked at the income, it starts at 35 and drops off at about 150 and it's very evenly dispersed. So there wasn't really no rhyme or reason on the income levels. This was the this was very interesting here. This one blew me away. 70% of people in the dog park live in a single family home, so which means they most likely have a backyard. And we do, we did ask. We do ask the question, you know, townhomes, apartments and things like that. So it would be a single family home, which means I would assume backyard. I
Dr. Judy Morgan 13:45
Well, I think that's interesting, because your survey also stated, I think the majority were had a single dog. And because socialization is so important, and that play aspect, even though they have a yard where their dog can go out, I think they're going to the dog park for if they have a social dog, because I I never take my dogs to dog parks because one their behavior would not be amenable to going to dog park. But I have four dogs, the two young ones that are my active crazies, they have each other. They're very social with each other. They play all the time, and we have a huge fenced yard, so they are getting that socialization, whereas somebody with a single dog, they're they're not going to get that.
John Sarver 14:33
yeah, and yeah. We absolutely hear that all the time, where people say, I let my dog out in the backyard, and the turnaround, he's standing at the door when they come back in
Dr. Judy Morgan 14:41
yes, yes, my unsocial ones, that's what they do.
John Sarver 14:44
And dogs love to be with their owners. We see this in the dog parks, and we'll get into this later on. But when, when people do go to the dog park, for the most part, their dogs are close to them. They still want to be with their owners. Yes, they'll be a. Little bit, you know, a little bit of distance, but for the most part, they like to congregate around their owners. And before we got into this, you had mentioned about some dog parks are good and some are bad. The we have found that the philosophy on the single family and multi family developers and some of the other businesses, it all starts at the top, you know, and we have developers that build apartments all over the United States, and because their owner is a dog person, it is, you know, they have great dog parks. And then we have other developers that build beautiful communities, and some of them don't even have dog parks. They, you know, there's like, like you said earlier, the thought of a dog park is a perceived liability, and so, you know, they won't put them in. So just like some developers put in swimming pools, and some don't. So we found that kind of starts at the top. And like you said, our job is to get with those people and talk with them about it and understand and then, obviously the way that we connected was we're trying to do things the right way, and we need people like you to and guide us and help us. And we've all we've appreciated everything you've done for us too.
Dr. Judy Morgan 16:17
Yeah. I mean, we that education component is huge. We're going to get into some other things that we need to educate the owners of dog parks about. So why do people not go to dog parks?
John Sarver 16:34
So the survey said lack of availability was the number one item. Lack of availability. And when you you know we did not dial into the mileage, the distance of that is, I did speak with a young lady on the plane last night, and she was next to me, and she was reading some of our responses, and hers was time, which is the fourth, it's the fourth ranked. So you got to kind of combine those two. You've got this much time. And you know, if the next dog park is the closest dog park is 10 miles from you, then that might be the day where you don't get to go. So the other thing is, they prefer different ways of exercising. Off leash and on leash walking is the main form of exercise for dogs. So I think what we're reading in here, and we have to do more, we have to continue to dial this down. But you know, most people want to work out at the same time with their dogs, so kind of killing two birds with one stone. So we do see a lot of people that will walk to the dog park or walk, you know, but they go to the dog park and they walk too. The other thing our survey showed us was people that don't go to the dog park, they're still exercising their dogs. There was not a significant difference in the amount of time someone spends with their dog, exercising with the with the dog park goers or visitors, versus the non dog park people. They dogs are getting an average of about 59 minutes of exercise a day. The range on that was kind of extreme. We saw the zero, which I've asked to tell me, how many dogs get zero exercise.
Dr. Judy Morgan 18:26
I have one of those.
John Sarver 18:29
The high range on that was 240 so that'd be four hours. And I'm sure that's split up during the day. We see, we see those people, you know, some of them are working or not working. So they'll go, you know, they'll spend two or three different sessions, some to the dog park, some walking, and then on the mileage thing, because we, when we ask people how they work out with their dog, we we give them the option of mileage or time. On the mileage, it's about two miles a day on the average. Once again, we saw zero on the range, and we saw 15 miles on the high end, which, those are probably going to be outliers, based on what we see out there, but they're out there. And there are people doing that. So and then, um, let me see, and that's that's time constraints was a big one as 18-20% don't go because of time constraints, and then that's it. 31% prefer different forms of exercise.
Dr. Judy Morgan 19:35
We need to take a break to hear from our sponsor. When we come back, we're going to talk about some of the rules of dog parks. Stay tuned.
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Dr. Judy Morgan
Welcome back. You're listening to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast, and I'm your host. Dr Judy Morgan, my guest today is John Sarver, owner of Gyms for Dogs and dog parks, and we are discussing the pros and cons of dog parks today, because a lot of people have a negative attitude about dog parks, and we'd like to change that, but you need to understand what you're looking for in a dog park. So what? What are some things that you should bring with you when you bring your dog to the dog park?
John Sarver 21:28
Number one, I think I've got it on me right here is some type of pet corrector. I love the pet corrector. Yes, we love these. And it's okay to hold this up because there's not many other options other than this one. They have a big market share. But and then, you know, I used to use a coach's whistle before the pet corrector, but I found noise is the best, is the best correcting device and for bad manners in a dog park, and I'm talking that kind of noise, because all the dogs in the dog park react, and it can break up, you know, some type of behavior you don't want to see. The other thing you can bring is, I typically like to have a harness on my dog in the dog park. Everybody has their own preferences. You know, most, most parks have the rules of not wearing a prong collar once you get into the park, we have seen several people get cut with the prong collar, more people than dogs. And then the harness is nice, because if the dogs, if you are trying to break something up, then you got a harness to grab onto, will be easier to grab onto than a collar.
Dr. Judy Morgan 22:43
I mean, collars certainly can be dangerous if you have dogs that get into we hear stories all the time of dogs getting choked by another dog getting stuck on the collar. So certainly a choker collar or prong collar would be a really bad idea.
John Sarver 22:57
Yeah, yeah, we actually had a dog that got the collar stuck. The reason we the reason we asked for a flush surface fence on the bottom, we've had a dog get a collar stuck in one of the prongs on a fence, and he and of course, he starts freaking out, and he can't get out. So it started choking him, and someone had to go and just release his collar off of them because it was so tight she couldn't pull it down. So we always, when we're given the opportunity to suggest the fencing, we request flush bottom, on the bottom. Yeah, and then the other the other thing is water. Lot of people bring their own water. Great idea. They'll even bring their own water bowl.
Dr. Judy Morgan 23:41
Yeah, those little collapsible water balls, I think would be a great thing. I know when we did training with our dogs, I purchased one of those little treat pouches, but it had, you know, little hooks on it so you could hang a water bottle and little compartment where you could put one of the collapsible water bowls. And I think having something like that and bringing your own supplies is a really good idea, because one of the things that everybody is against is, oh my gosh, they're going to get sick. Well, not sharing communal water bowls is a really important component of that, particularly when we're talking about viruses and things that that could be communicable through the water. So I strongly recommend having a clean water source. And I know that's one of your big gripes. When you go look at other parks,
John Sarver 24:29
most of the pictures I send you are really issues with water,
Dr. Judy Morgan 24:34
but you developed a dog fountain that solves that issue. So how does the fountain work?
John Sarver 24:39
Yeah, I've already sent her two water pictures today. So the fountain that we designed is a it operates off of a lever, off of a valve, so you can adjust the flow of the water. We also have the dog water fountain that goes off when a dog walks up to it, a motion sensor activated release. But both of these fountains that we have, they don't have a basin on them, so the water comes out of a spout. Most dogs. The reason we designed this, we've we've found that most dogs like to drink out of the actual flow of the water, and not out of a bowl. So what we did was we designed a water fountain where it comes the valve, and then the water comes out of the valve. Dogs can actually drink right from the spout. You can put a bowl down below that, but the bowls that we make have holes in them. And we have the holes in them is so the water is not standing there. And we actually had a customer that bought one, and she called us. She said, I want to return my bowl. It doesn't it's got a hole in it and and then I spent the next 15 minutes on the phone explaining it to her, and she kept it. But yeah, so that is that's, that's the big thing, and that's why I send you a lot of those pictures. I think I sent you the other time I send you a lot of pictures. Is standing water and residual water usually comes from the water fountain line, and they don't have it draining. So what happens is it drains off of a concrete pad, and then it'll drain into this mucky swamp. And those are 60% of the pictures I sent you are those, and it gets really that can get really dangerous. I'm sure.
Dr. Judy Morgan 26:20
now, now we're breeding mosquitoes, and we've we've got other pest problems, not to mention your dog's getting all muddy and disgusting while...who wants to come home from the dog park and have to immediately give your dog a bath. So what are some things that people should not bring to dog parks with them?
John Sarver 26:40
And it's just one thing to back up that the other thing we suggest having is a first aid kit. You don't necessarily have to walk in the park with it, but have it in your car. We have a constant need for that. We built, we built a first aid kit that goes in the park. And we, you know, of course, we can't stock these all over the country, but hopefully, the people that the developers that have the park stock them. What you shouldn't bring is probably the thing, is probably bringing personal toys for, you know, we see people come in with the little slingers with their dog's toy and, you know, it just always You get tense and then that's why you need these. So we try to say, don't bring those. We don't like to see any products in there. They have, like, a fabric material that can hold the bacteria, tennis balls. You know, you know, tennis balls don't really last that long, either and but you can get a nice rubber ball, and the rubber balls last a long time, and they don't carry that bacteria on on the
Dr. Judy Morgan 27:49
tennis balls are actually really horrible dog toys. They're really abrasive to the teeth, and I once had to do surgery on a 10 week old Irish setter puppy who had chewed all the fuzz covering off a tennis ball and it caused an obstruction, just packed the stomach, so this poor little 10 week old dog had to undergo surgery and have it's stomach opened up to take out tennis ball fuzz. So ever and that was like my second year out of school. So ever since then, so 40 years now, I've been saying, don't use tennis balls with your dogs,
John Sarver 28:21
yeah, and then also the ropes and anything like that. That causes. What we found is the way, the best way I can state it is it can start a competition, and then once you start a competition, just like in humans, the next step is aggression, and then the next step is bad behavior. So, you know, someone comes in with the squeaky ball and their own slinger and their own squeaky ball from their home, it ultimately, most of the time, it ends up kind of a bad idea, and then the and then getting back to the tennis balls, you know, we, we have seen where we think the tennis balls created some problems with like kennel cough and things like that. So we, you know, those, those things we don't like to see out there, just nice rubber balls and things that can't hold that,
Dr. Judy Morgan 29:20
you know that as much bacteria
John Sarver 29:23
And I learned that from reading, you know, from you.
Dr. Judy Morgan 29:26
So in the dog parks, do you see many children?
John Sarver 29:31
We do, yeah, we do. And, um, so, so the thing about children is their movement is a lot different. It's quicker. They're shorter, so they can be I don't know if that's challenging to the dogs, but the dogs seem to be attracted to we. We have a lot of fun, like emulating how kids walk across the middle of the park. You know, they just walk across the middle of the park, and there will be a congested area of dogs. And, yeah, that's a bad one. But, you know, we like for kids to be around dogs. It's just in the middle of the park is tough, and they, you know, they climb on the equipment and everything too. So it's just, I think it can all be managed if the, you know, if the owner of the children pays attention to their dog and their and their children at same time.
Dr. Judy Morgan 30:25
Yeah, I've always said that small children are just to dogs. You know, you get this pack of children running around, arms, flailing legs, going high pitched screeches to the dogs. They're like, that thing is a threat, and I should pounce on that. And not all dogs are raised with small children, so like my dogs, I have a four year old granddaughter, so Easter egg hunts, birthday parties are always in our backyard, and so we get a whole bunch of HEH! going on. My dogs do not attend that would be so threatening to them that they would just lose their little brains. And so, you know, I think one of the things that people need to think about if they're taking their child with them, particularly a young child, to the dog park, just remember that not all dogs are around children, and not all children are really well trained on how to approach a strange dog or what to do if a strange dog is coming at them. So just a word of warning to those of you have children and dogs and you want to go use the dog park, really think twice about whether your child is age appropriate. And you know, trained in being around a lot of dogs.
John Sarver 31:39
and the children will bring small things in the park too that dogs can swallow. So, you know, Hot Wheels and things a lot smaller than a hot wheel. And they'll bring them, and then, you know, they're all over the place. One one day in the park. This little boy, he's, I'm thinking he's maybe five, six years old, the dogs kept chasing him, and I said, hey, they don't like the fast, twitchy motions. I said, You got to slow up a little bit. And he starts walking slow motion across the park. But that's that's kind of the basics, right there.
Dr. Judy Morgan 32:15
So let's talk about human behavior in the dog parks. You once said to me, the biggest problem in the dog parks is not the dogs, it's the people.
John Sarver 32:26
Yeah. I mean, it's dog parks can be quick Quickie, you know?
Dr. Judy Morgan 32:30
And boy high school all over again,
John Sarver 32:34
Yeah. And so what we try to do when we design a dog park, we try to spread people out, because, you know, we know the dogs are going to be want to be around their their owners. So if you have everybody congregated in one area where the dogs are going to be congregated there. So when we design a dog park, we try to spread things out and make it welcoming for everyone. You know, you have your regular every day or every nighters that come in, and then you have people that are coming for the first time, or they don't come that often. 30% of people go to dog parks are very regular, and 30% are moderate, and I can give you a breakdown of those. And then 30% are occasional. So you know, you try to make it, you try to make it a community effort and welcoming, and that's the way it usually is. But we definitely see more, we definitely see more human, human, I guess, disagreements or whatever. Then we see, you know, the fights that you worry about in the dog park with the dogs. So I think, I think that all starts with the design. You got to have a design that spreads people out, and then also nothing near the entrance at all. Not a single thing the entrance. We commit that for wheelchair accessibility. We call it a companion zone concrete pad for a wheelchair. But our rule is nothing within 30 feet of the entrance. Get them out in the park, down out there.
Dr. Judy Morgan 34:18
yeah, and it's always a double Well, no, I've seen things, so it should be a double gate system so that we don't have dogs hitting the road. And so that people can get in safely. Sort of like, when you go to the zoo and you want to go into the aviary, you have to go through a double door system, yeah, so we need that double door system to keep our dogs and people safe as well.
John Sarver 34:44
Yes, and those have to be, those have to be enough space too. Some of those leash up boxes. You're closing one gate, and you are in there with your dog, and you can barely open the other gate without closing that one, kind of like a bathroom in New York City, you know? So, yeah. So we try to create enough space so you can get in there, unleash your dog, and then get them in there
Dr. Judy Morgan 35:05
yeah, and then move away from the gate area.
Dr. Judy Morgan 35:10
So what are some of the basic rules that a good group play business? So we're talking about dog bar, daycare, dog parks. What are basic rules that they should have in place to help keep dogs safe.
John Sarver 35:21
Um, I think, I think number one, and you know, we've been working with with you on this is what is the right group size, you know? And obviously there's a different group size, indoor versus outdoor. When we do the math and we start playing with these things on paper, we come up with about 200 square feet per dog. So the dog park that I go to a lot is 8000 square feet. It's at a shopping mall. It's one of my favorite dog parks because it is small. So the dogs interact with each other, and so that one would max out at about 40 dogs, which is about where we see we get 40 dogs in there, and then we'll have events at the shopping mall, and when we get 40 dogs in there, it's pretty it's pretty stressful for everybody. So you know 40 dogs would mean at least 40 people, but more likely be 55, to 60 people, some kids, and it gets pretty crowded. So that would be number one. Would be, make sure that your group environment and the doggy and the indoor doggy daycares and things like that, we, I think the people that we talked to seem to like a group size of about five to seven dogs indoors. You sent me one picture that had like, 25 dogs. Yeah, we were doing the math. We did the math on that one. And each dog had a, like a five by five space, so they were basically in a, like, in a kennel, you know. But, yeah, so, and then the other thing is, you've got to have a very serious mandate on picking up pet waste. That's, that's one of the most important things, you know, it's, we talk about that like, like the broken windows theory, or a restaurant, you know, you don't want to most restaurants that have great food, the restaurant's also clean. And we see that with dog parks, the cleanliness of the dog park is so important, and then the maintenance of the dog park, you know, a lot of times the landscapers, when we get back into fencing again, if you have those prongs, if you don't have a flush bottom on your fence, and you have those prongs, the landscapers don't like to they don't like to weed eat the bottom part because it tears up the string on the landscaping, on the weed eater. So, and that's, that's an area dogs like to pee, and they like to go the bathroom. Is that fence line, and that can get really nasty if they're not we, you know, if it's not weeding, it can get very gross. So, um, you just, it's kind of like a restaurant, you know, you want to just go in. What I typically do, I went to your local dog park this morning. What I typically do is, like to just kind of walk the park and, you know, just check it out before you really commit to spending a lot of time there, see if there's holes in the fence, but these dog parks are like putting a swimming pool in. They do require maintenance, and a lot of people feel like they can just build a dog park and it's done, but it requires daily maintenance, you know.
Dr. Judy Morgan 38:35
And you brought up a statistic when we were speaking before we went on air, about So you went from bags to pooper scoopers, and also, because all the dog parks have the little station with the bags and the trash can, which I've been to so many areas where the trash cans are overflowing, nobody ever empties them. So what are you supposed to do with the waste? So then the bags are piling up around the bottom. And we find these really, you know, dirty, dirty parks where people just don't pick up. First of all, I can't fathom not picking up after my dog. But you brought up a statistic, something like, if the further you get from the station,
John Sarver 39:18
Yep, yeah. So, you know? So it's in, first of all, it's a community effort. What happens is it becomes a community so when you start enforcing the pet picking up pet waste, it becomes infectious with the with the local regular dog park people. So that's a that's a really good thing. But what you're talking about is, you know, we've seen articles. We read the articles where people write the dangers of dog parks and why you don't go to dog parks. And so a lot of times they talk about pet waste. So we started saying, Look, well, let's take this so. Let's make lemonade out of these lemons. You know these naysayers that write these articles about how dirty dog parks are? Yes, they are dirty. And like you said, we're in the business of trying to make the best dog parks out there and educating developers how to do that. So we we started noticing that we were getting about from about 35 feet from a pet station, pet waste station, we were getting good pickup rates, but once you got outside of the pet waste station, that little 30 foot area, we noticed a significant drop off in the pickup rate. So we developed a pooper scooper to go on the back of our pet waste station, and then we also have a storage unit that the pet, the pooper scooper, goes into. And we've got holes in the bottom of that, so when it rains, it naturally cleans it. And we tested that. We We sat there and watched people pick up poop, and we just saw a significant our paper was 70% greater cleanliness factor when we put these pooper scoopers in. So we really promote the pooper scoopers. And it's one of those things when people flip we've got a park up in the shopping mall Park, and almost, almost everyone's using the pooper scooper now, yes, some people still do the bags, but the thing about a pooper scooper is, not only will they pick up their dog's waist, but they'll also on their way back, they might see two or three other ones that they'll pick up. And typically, with a bag, you won't get that type of success.
Dr. Judy Morgan 41:38
All right, so for those of you who use dog parks, or walk your dogs through neighborhoods, pick up your dog's poop. It is so critical. When we used to live at the shore, we would walk our dogs. Sometimes we would walk, you know, 30 miles a week, and we'd pass by so much poop. And of course, on our block, if anybody found poop, they always blamed us, because we had so many dogs, and I can guarantee you, I never left a pile of poop anywhere, no matter what. Sometimes I would, you know, go to get a bag out, and oh my gosh, I'm empty. Well, there, almost always there would be a piece of a cup or a bag or something that was trash laying around that I could find, and I would always pick it up, always, always, always clean up after your pets. Be kind to your friends. We need to take a break to hear from our sponsors. Stay tuned. We'll be right back.
PRODUCT SPOTLIGHT #2
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Dr. Judy Morgan
Welcome back. You're listening to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast, and I'm your host, Dr Judy Morgan, my good friend John Sarver and I are discussing the pros and cons of dog parks, why we need them, and what makes a good dog park and what makes a bad dog park. So what are some of the benefits of dog parks? Why? Why should people want to take their dog?
John Sarver 43:24
It provides a provides an outlet for the dog to get some exercise and socialize with other dogs and also socialize with other dog owners. Very you know this is very important for the dog. The benefit of, obviously, you have an apartment complex or a single family development having a nice dog park where the community can come together and spend time with their dogs and be outdoors. And one of the you know, one of the biggest reasons people go the dog park is not just socialization with their dog, with other dogs, but also with the people. So it's a great, you know, it's, it's just another amenity, like a like a barbecue or a swimming pool. It's just another great amenity. And with so many dogs out, you know, out here, half the people have dogs, and average ownership is 1.8 so if you have an apartment complex with, say, 400 units, yeah, you pay two or three, 200 300 dogs, and based on our surveys, about half of those dogs are dog park. You know, dog park dogs, so you need a place for them
Dr. Judy Morgan 44:38
and it needs to be a safe place. So what makes a dog park good?
John Sarver 44:44
You know, first of all, cleanliness. You know, we had talked about the pet waste earlier. We our pet waste stations say, pick up for the safety of the dogs, pick up pet waste. And we don't say your pet waste. We say any pet waste. And we say promptly and completely. And so I would say cleanliness is most important thing. The other thing is the design of the dog park. It all starts in the design and planning stages, making sure your leash up box is in the right place, making sure your dog park is in the right place. We when I started in the fitness industry, believe it or not, this how old I am. But when we were, when we used to go meet with hotel developers on fitness centers, we would have to have conversations with them why they should have a fitness center. This was before hotels had fitness centers and and then over time, you can see where that is. They now have complete gyms in there. And I feel like we're kind of there right now is that we have started to see the dog park move from the back of the apartment community to the front of the community. And this is a, this is a big commitment, you know, for a developer, that's prime, that's prime land right by the leasing office. But we're starting to see it. I was, I was just down in Orlando at the Global Pet conference, toured a bunch of dog parks, multifamily dog parks, in that area. And like we talked about earlier, it's the philosophy from the top down, some of these apartment developers are putting the dog parks right up by the leasing center and the pool, which I think is the right place for it, because people will be safe being at a dog park where there's people around, but also the owner is going to have to be more committed in in a nicer dog park, because you can put them in the back and get away with it. having poops there, but once you put it up by The pool, it's going to get more attention. So the the initial design of the park, we like a small dog section, large dog section, and then we also like a third dog section, which we call our solo dog section, and that's for dogs that aren't necessarily ready to go to the dog park for many reasons. You know, if they've gone through surgery, or they're shy or they're aggressive, that little solo section is one that, if we get the opportunity to design a park from start, we always try to put that in and then basically a clean Park play equipment scattered throughout the park. Benches out in the park, the entrance is clean, nothing there. No reason for anybody to stand by the entrance. So you don't put benches or water fountains up there, put them out in the park, put them down in the corners, on the edges, get people out in the park.
Dr. Judy Morgan 47:36
And why is it important to have that play equipment? I, I I know we, we found a study that talked about and you've seen it personally, and we haven't talked about this very much, but a lot of animal shelters are putting in dog parks with equipment, and so what are some of the changes that you're seeing when that equipment is available?
John Sarver 47:58
Well, it's time spent with the dog. You know for sure, you've, you've, you mentioned it earlier. You go to a dog park with no equipment in there, and some of these places don't even have benches in there. What do you do? You know? What do you do? It's like going to a gym to work out and there's no equipment in there. I mean, if they don't, if they don't have equipment in there, they're, you know, kind of, my opinion, they're not really necessarily a dog park. Yes, and you can go play tennis, you know, put, take a tennis ball or a rubber ball down, play with your dog there, get some running in. But what the equipment does is it gives the dogs challenges that they that they can, you know, this why we got into the business to give the dog challenges that they can, you know, develop that bond with the owner with we talked about this the other night. We had a trainer at dinner, and we were talking about, you know, the shelters, how the equipment helps the shelter businesses, the adoption rate increases with the equipment versus no equipment, because people are spending more time with their dog, but also just flat out general obedience. You know, if you're in the park and you have five or six of our pieces there, then it's you and your dog, and you're teaching your dog how to do some things. And one of the, one of the reasons, getting back to the very first part of this conversation, one of the reasons that one of my dogs kept pushing me to develop these products was I could see her face when she would try to do something new. I could see the concentration on her face. And that's what it was like. You know, I kept constantly wanting to push her, because so much fun when you see a dog cringe. So we see it all the time in the park, and you seen our equipment, when they come up to a bridge, they're like, What do I do, you know? And the owner, a lot of times, the owner is like, what do I do? And it's just fun to watch that happen, you know. And then once they get up on our platforms, you know, they're eye level with you. It's very intimate. And. And you can also do obedience training the shakes. You know, one of the one of our trainers, does the taught her dog to wave, and it's just, you got to have equipment. I mean, it's just, it just gives the dog something to do. And our equipment, the way our equipment's worked, is we've got balance, we've got climbing, we've got jumping, we've got decline, incline, and we also have socialization, which is like our tunnel house and underneath our Bridge Climb, where the dogs can go hang out, which is a big reason people go to dog park is socialization.
Dr. Judy Morgan 50:34
Sure, yeah. I mean, the one study talked about shelter adoption rates going way up, partly because when the dogs are up on the equipment, they're at eye level with the potential adopter, and that bond, you know, being on level with the dog and having that conversation and and kind of seeing the dog do different things, it's more than just walking into a shelter, looking in a cage, petting a dog, and saying, okay, good. I think that interaction. You know, it in the studies, it's elevated the adoption rates. So you know, for those of you who work with shelters out there, get some equipment, get a good dog park put in. So what dogs do you recommend not attending dog parks?
John Sarver 51:19
Yeah, yeah, we've seen some great things, you know, from some great owners. We one thing we don't recommend is integration. When you are trying to integrate your dog into a dog park, some people will come to a dog park and they'll walk their dog around the edges, and then you know what happens to all the dogs in the park when they do that? So it we don't recommend that. We've seen some bad things there where they do that. And then when their dog finally does come in and all the dogs, it just kind of makes them more attentive. I think, just standing outside the dog park, not walking the perimeter, but standing out there, and, you know, is a good thing. We, we, we've seen a lot of great things. We've seen dogs. We, you know, we've seen dogs that were, let's just say, aggressive at first, and then over time, they've learned how to how to play with the dogs. Some people come in with the training collars, the E collars, some people come in with muzzles. We don't see that a whole lot, but I, you know, we, we, I go both ways on the muzzles.
Dr. Judy Morgan 52:35
I kind of feel like if you need to have your dog muzzled because they're going to be aggressive, then they're probably not a good candidate to be there
John Sarver 52:41
Yeah, And then some of them bring the muzzle, because their dogs eat things off the ground, like, if it's a mulch Park. But we, we, we have seen most dogs being able to integrate into the park. And then you have to consider, you know, you have to consider, there's certain times of day when small dogs come to the park and large dogs come to the park. Kind of got to factor all that in based on your dog's behavior. Maggie is really good up to about 10 dogs or 15 dogs. And after we get about 15 dogs in there, she'll get some anxiety. Tail goes between the legs. She gets out on the perimeter of the fence line and kind of starts watching TV from there. So every dogs got their their thing, but
Dr. Judy Morgan 53:27
have their limits. Yeah, and something that is not discussed very often is animals who are immune compromised. I mean, certainly you should never bring a sick dog to the park. So if your dog is, you know, acting sick, coughing, vomiting, diarrhea, don't go to the dog park. Let's get them healthy, but so that we don't give something to somebody else, and we also don't want an immune compromised dog to potentially be exposed to a lot of other viruses, bacteria that are not in their normal environment. So immune compromised dogs, these dogs that are constantly on apoquel, dogs that are constantly on steroids, dogs that are on cyclosporine. I mean, me, personally, I would not take a dog on those medications into a large group setting. That's that's like taking your your kid who has never been exposed to anything and is on some sort of a immune suppressing drug into a really bad environment for them. So what can people do to create the best vibe in a dog park?
John Sarver 54:31
That's a good question. A good vibe is get back to what I keep saying. Spread it out. Spread people out. If you want to get into the vibe. The the solar string lights are very cute, especially at night. I think now this is kind of interesting. Our you know, everything's philosophical, but we don't like a lot of seating in the dog parks. One thing that we learned when we. Start. We used to market Adirondack chairs. But what we learned after Adirondack because, you know, an adirondack chair is 15 feet or 15 inches off the ground, and you sink you sink into it. You literally sink into the chair. We started noticing the pickup rate went down, and so people get really comfortable in the Adirondack so we, we, we got away from the singular seating. It was a position a couple years ago we were going to get into more singular seating, like Adirondack chairs, do some bright colors and get that look. But we just started seeing bad things when we did that. So we pulled out from that, I say, put a little bit of seating in there, but not a lot, because the vibe is people standing up, talking to each other in different locations within the park. Not one, you know, if you have one concrete pad and everything's there, the benches and water fountain, that's where most people probably going to hang out. So a good vibe is spread people out. Make sure the property stays clean and the maintenance is scheduled regularly. I say daily. It's really important for whenever the park opens up at eight or nine o'clock, to have the maintenance walk the park, not just unlock the gate. But we found broken bottles. We have found body parts from dead animals. We have found a lot of things in the dog park that shouldn't be there. And if no one's ever walking the park, the community is great. I will say that almost every dog park I've been to there is a community the regulars, and it's always been great meeting them. And you know, some of the people we meet in dog parks are phenomenal. I've got to tell you about a gentleman that has a blind dog, and he's got a whole daily routine they do at the dog park. But yeah, that's the vibe. Is the people make the vibe and be being welcoming. And also this is main thing, is being understanding we had, we've had a lot of new people with new dogs that have never had dogs before coming in the dog park the last three or four years, and just help people helping each other. Like a lot of people, don't necessarily know how to use the leash Up Box, they'll come in and they'll come in the dog park with their dog on a leash, and they'll have all the dogs in the park with their leash. So it's the main thing is community and getting everybody to, you know, help everybody else. And, you know, there's a lot of the people at the dog park I go to know Maggie just about as good well as I know Maggie. And vice versa. You know,
Dr. Judy Morgan 57:42
And a couple of points on that good etiquette from people. Don't go to the dog park and spend your entire time there on your phone with your nose buried in a book. Pay attention to your dog. Don't just turn your dog loose and ignore them, because that's when we get into trouble when people aren't paying attention to their dogs, their dog's interactions, when people are distracted doing something else, this is a really good time to shove your phone in a pocket, keep it with you, just in case you need it for an emergency, but put it in your pocket. This is a time to interact with your dog, enjoy time spent together, make new friends in the dog park. I mean, I would say that just about 100% of my friends are dog owners that I have met through dogs. You know, when, when you're a young parent, you meet other people through your kids and through school. I don't have kids in school. I don't go hang out at bars. So how do I meet people? I meet people with my dogs. That's how I've always met people.
John Sarver 58:42
Yeah, it is a family it is a family affair, for sure.
Dr. Judy Morgan 58:46
It absolutely is. John, there are so many things that we have not covered. We may have to do a couple of other videos. There's so many things we haven't covered, but this information is critical, and since meeting you and really learning about dog group play settings, I'm now on a mission to get people educated, because so many people do use dog parks and have really good success. And you know, not all dogs and not all people are a good fit for dog group play, but for those that are we need to make it as good as we can. And I love your mission. And the fact that you have put in 1000s of dog parks across North America means that you are making inroads, and let's hope that there's, oh, I don't know, 10,000 more really good dog parks that go in so that our dogs can have safe socialization areas, and people can really celebrate their dogs, and I appreciate that, that you're doing that.
John Sarver 59:49
Well, We appreciate, you know, your help, and we, you know, we are trying to get these dogs some exercise and socialization, but, you know, we it does. Requires someone you know, like you to help us understand, you know, you know we it all comes together. Help us understand how to make these dog parks better, cleaner, water issues, for sure, pet issues. So anytime I read an article where someone you know kind of talks kind of a naysayer about a dog park a lot of times, those are on the medical side. And then so you can help us and guide us how we can make these parks clean and safe for the dogs,
Dr. Judy Morgan 1:00:30
absolutely. thank you everyone for listening. I hope you have learned a lot about good and bad parts of dog parks. Go out and enjoy your day with your dogs.
OUTRO/DISCLAIMER
The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. You're encouraged to do your own research, and should not rely on this information as professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Dr Judy and her guests express their own views, experience and conclusions. Dr Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets neither endorses or opposes any particular view discussed here.
